Who has done a SEPST auto tune?
#31
02-17-2018, 07:36 AM
Banned
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harleytacticalnut (02-17-2018)
#32
02-17-2018, 10:40 AM
Stellar HDF Member
I would like to see all the concrete evidence that you spew that this ATM does absolutely nothing as you claim.
....
So it is doing its job as it should be. For something that has absolutely no value what so ever according to you. Listening to you leads me to believe you must have engineered, designed and manufactured the product the way you bad mouth it to everyone that it does absolutely nothing, with no evidence what so ever and claim there is no value what so ever. HD sells them and they do work.
Perhaps you have some kind of reading comprehension problem. I didn't say that the STPATM and the wide bands don't do anything. What I was suggesting is - should you look into it - that it may not - with minor exception - do anything for you that the SEPST and the stock narrow bands won't do already. So the question is - "What are you getting for spending the extra money? I'm suggesting that you might want to think about that.
Me neither. However, you don't really need to be to understand the basic concepts. But, for what it's worth, if memory serves, FLTRI17 is a pro, and he's essentially made the same point (in an earlier reply) that I've been making - but with a lot fewer words. For me, I do have a DJ Power Vision and Target Tune (you need the PV to flash tunes and do "auto tuning" etc., but only the TT needs to remain installed for normal operation). I've studied and played with it a fair bit. Generally speaking, I'm familiar with what the tool does and - in particular - how to use it in my application. For what it's worth, I also make my living as an Electrical Engineer and have worked a couple of years (many moons ago) in industrial controls. Granted, I don't work in this particular field (tuning engines), the years of separation between now and my scholastic glory days is getting up there, and I'm getting older - with all that this fact entails in terms of memory. But, I do believe I can still understand the basic concepts/theory when I read up on the material. Granted, my own experimentation and study does not even remotely compare to the experience and detailed knowledge/understanding of the pro's (many of which frequent these forums).
Once you provide that then we can sit down and have a discussion about how crappy of an ATM really is but until then don’t you think you should stop pushing people away from it based off of your hear say. Kind of like you are working for a competitor or something.
Last edited by T^2; 02-17-2018 at 01:00 PM.
#34
02-17-2018, 01:27 PM
Cruiser
Perhaps you have some kind of reading comprehension problem. I didn't say that the STPATM and the wide bands don't do anything. What I was suggesting is - should you look into it - that it may not - with minor exception - do anything for you that the SEPST and the stock narrow bands won't do already. So the question is - "What are you getting for spending the extra money? I'm suggesting that you might want to think about that.
From what I've gleaned, the SEPST is limited in other tables as well, to include spark. It can make no adjustment to AFR. So... Thinking about that... If you're making mods and have a canned map that has been done on another bike with the same components/setup that you intend to implement on your own bike - then it should be close enough that the SEPST (with or without the STPATM) can get your dialed in (with the EPA compliant constraints in tow). What if you're making modifications (for which you don't have a canned map that is close) that injects more error into tables than the SEPST (with or without the STPATM) has the ability to correct for?
In part, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. However, the last part... You do realize that the STPATM requires a SEPST?
Guess what... With the exception of "VE" (it's really AFR)... The ECM with the stock narrow bands does all that too. It's called close loop control. Look up the concept. The O2 sensors - whether they be narrow or wide bands - are simply the feedback element (measuring actual AFR - more accurately - Lamda) in the system.
Recombining that with the first part of the sentence - you seem to be going off the rails here. Taken in toto, it suggest your understanding of how this stuff works may need some work.
Me neither. However, you don't really need to be to understand the basic concepts. But, for what it's worth, if memory serves, FLTRI17 is a pro, and he's essentially made the same point (in an earlier reply) that I've been making - but with a lot fewer words. For me, I do have a DJ Power Vision and Target Tune (you need the PV to flash tunes and do "auto tuning" etc., but only the TT needs to remain installed for normal operation). I've studied and played with it a fair bit. Generally speaking, I'm familiar with what the tool does and - in particular - how to use it in my application. For what it's worth, I also make my living as an Electrical Engineer and have worked a couple of years (many moons ago) in industrial controls. Granted, I don't work in this particular field (tuning engines), the years of separation between now and my scholastic glory days is getting up there, and I'm getting older - with all that this fact entails in terms of memory. But, I do believe I can still understand the basic concepts/theory when I read up on the material. Granted, my own experimentation and study does not even remotely compare to the experience and detailed knowledge/understanding of the pro's (many of which frequent these forums).
Then you should know what this tool - or tools - does and does not do. However, from what I'm reading, it suggest that you may be having some difficulty here.
I'm indeed suggesting that it may not "perform as they market it." First and foremost, they market it as being able to automatically tune your bike (it's in the name of the product for Christ sake). I'm suggesting that it does no such thing because there is no such thing as "auto tune". What they call "auto tune" essentially attempts to calibrate the VE tables. Calibrating VE's is only one of many steps (think near the beginning) required to "tune". Even if it does that step well (which has been debated), having calibrated VE tables does not constitute a "tune". If you don't care for my word on that, then go ask somebody like Steve Cole. He's a pro and Subject Matter Expert (SME). If memory servers, he's said the same thing many times. If he tells you that I'm full of ****, come back and let me know. I'm always interesting in improving my knowledge and will humbly stand corrected.
Now that's an interesting comment. When it comes to proof, I've not really seen any that's concrete when it comes to "auto tuning" (either with narrow or wide bands). I can say that I think that it has made improvements in my own case, but I have no real evidence of it. I've considered going out to get that evidence just to satisfy curiosity. I've ran "auto tune" on my bike many times (both with narrow bands and with TT/wide bands). I might be interested in having my bike dyno'ed to see a before and after comparison of the VE tables. Granted, it's impossible to reach all the areas of the tables "auto tuning" on the street that dyno tuning can reach, but for those areas that can be reached "auto tuning", it would be interesting to compare results. However, for the test to have some validity, you would have to ensure that you have a competent pro (vs. a hack) doing the dyno work. I'm not familiar with the "pro's" around here - which might pose a problem with getting valid results in this experiment. To date - I've not read any post with such results or found any published anywhere else.
Fine... Believe what you want to believe and buy what you want to buy. No skin off my back. However, if you do some homework, you might find that what I've said may have some validity and that it may save you from wasting some money.
From what I've gleaned, the SEPST is limited in other tables as well, to include spark. It can make no adjustment to AFR. So... Thinking about that... If you're making mods and have a canned map that has been done on another bike with the same components/setup that you intend to implement on your own bike - then it should be close enough that the SEPST (with or without the STPATM) can get your dialed in (with the EPA compliant constraints in tow). What if you're making modifications (for which you don't have a canned map that is close) that injects more error into tables than the SEPST (with or without the STPATM) has the ability to correct for?
In part, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. However, the last part... You do realize that the STPATM requires a SEPST?
Guess what... With the exception of "VE" (it's really AFR)... The ECM with the stock narrow bands does all that too. It's called close loop control. Look up the concept. The O2 sensors - whether they be narrow or wide bands - are simply the feedback element (measuring actual AFR - more accurately - Lamda) in the system.
Recombining that with the first part of the sentence - you seem to be going off the rails here. Taken in toto, it suggest your understanding of how this stuff works may need some work.
Me neither. However, you don't really need to be to understand the basic concepts. But, for what it's worth, if memory serves, FLTRI17 is a pro, and he's essentially made the same point (in an earlier reply) that I've been making - but with a lot fewer words. For me, I do have a DJ Power Vision and Target Tune (you need the PV to flash tunes and do "auto tuning" etc., but only the TT needs to remain installed for normal operation). I've studied and played with it a fair bit. Generally speaking, I'm familiar with what the tool does and - in particular - how to use it in my application. For what it's worth, I also make my living as an Electrical Engineer and have worked a couple of years (many moons ago) in industrial controls. Granted, I don't work in this particular field (tuning engines), the years of separation between now and my scholastic glory days is getting up there, and I'm getting older - with all that this fact entails in terms of memory. But, I do believe I can still understand the basic concepts/theory when I read up on the material. Granted, my own experimentation and study does not even remotely compare to the experience and detailed knowledge/understanding of the pro's (many of which frequent these forums).
Then you should know what this tool - or tools - does and does not do. However, from what I'm reading, it suggest that you may be having some difficulty here.
I'm indeed suggesting that it may not "perform as they market it." First and foremost, they market it as being able to automatically tune your bike (it's in the name of the product for Christ sake). I'm suggesting that it does no such thing because there is no such thing as "auto tune". What they call "auto tune" essentially attempts to calibrate the VE tables. Calibrating VE's is only one of many steps (think near the beginning) required to "tune". Even if it does that step well (which has been debated), having calibrated VE tables does not constitute a "tune". If you don't care for my word on that, then go ask somebody like Steve Cole. He's a pro and Subject Matter Expert (SME). If memory servers, he's said the same thing many times. If he tells you that I'm full of ****, come back and let me know. I'm always interesting in improving my knowledge and will humbly stand corrected.
Now that's an interesting comment. When it comes to proof, I've not really seen any that's concrete when it comes to "auto tuning" (either with narrow or wide bands). I can say that I think that it has made improvements in my own case, but I have no real evidence of it. I've considered going out to get that evidence just to satisfy curiosity. I've ran "auto tune" on my bike many times (both with narrow bands and with TT/wide bands). I might be interested in having my bike dyno'ed to see a before and after comparison of the VE tables. Granted, it's impossible to reach all the areas of the tables "auto tuning" on the street that dyno tuning can reach, but for those areas that can be reached "auto tuning", it would be interesting to compare results. However, for the test to have some validity, you would have to ensure that you have a competent pro (vs. a hack) doing the dyno work. I'm not familiar with the "pro's" around here - which might pose a problem with getting valid results in this experiment. To date - I've not read any post with such results or found any published anywhere else.
Fine... Believe what you want to believe and buy what you want to buy. No skin off my back. However, if you do some homework, you might find that what I've said may have some validity and that it may save you from wasting some money.
#35
02-17-2018, 01:37 PM
Cruiser
Actually he is right on point. Instead of using your hear say. How about this. Maybe you or any of your nay sayers actually buy the ATM and try it before you condem it. Then if your so smart maybe you could actually hook a monitoring tool to it to prove your theory. Just that your theory. Listening to you would only push someone to buy a TTS because nothing else ever works and is just marketing crap. But again I was always taught that the proof is in the pudding which you have nothing to base your theory Off of. Either put up or shut up. It’s that simple. But stop spreading rumors until you actually buy it and try it. If not your doing nothing but spewing words again.
#38
02-17-2018, 04:16 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
i dunno', glad i took the experts advice here and got a proper dyno tune with the SEPST by a reputable tuner instead of fussing with all that stuff, add on device one more thing to have an opportunity to fail, running a bunch of auto tunes and loading them..one and done and done right..even the SEPST tutorial states dyno tuning is the best and preferred method..more than one way to skin a cat tho..I just like the KISS method
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Kyle Moore (02-17-2018)
#39
02-17-2018, 04:40 PM
Stellar HDF Member
i dunno', glad i took the experts advice here and got a proper dyno tune with the SEPST by a reputable tuner instead of fussing with all that stuff, add on device one more thing to have an opportunity to fail, running a bunch of auto tunes and loading them..one and done and done right..even the SEPST tutorial states dyno tuning is the best and preferred method..more than one way to skin a cat tho..I just like the KISS method
Only down side I see is the SEPST and it's EPA compliance constraints. If you want to play with mods in the future (after warranty is no longer a concern) that require you to step outside the bounds of EPA compliance, then the SEPST's future might be finding itself being sold on Ebay at a significantly reduced price or finding a new home in a dumpster. Same goes with other SE components bought to stay right with the man. If so, then there's the cost of replacements that might be needed so that you can do what you need to get done.
But that's the dealio these days... Whaddya going to do? The EPA pretty much has HD - and buy extension the end consumer - by the ***** when it come to this stuff.
On the other hand... Many may find that the SE stage upgrades and SEPST provides all that they need and that they can live happily ever after with what they have. No problem with that - and in that case nothing lost.
Last edited by T^2; 02-17-2018 at 04:42 PM.
#40
02-17-2018, 04:48 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
yeah, I fall into this camp these days..been there done all that other stuff and spent/lost a fortune on bikes. older, planning retirement in 5 years and do a lot of Touring..it all depends on what you want and need out of a bike