....

Same point I was making...

 

Flstcbob, do you remember how you changed the VE values after your data run with auto tune? In general, did you mostly increase or decrease VE values?

 

You don't need the STPATM for this. All you need is the SEPST.

What people say really doesn't matter. The facts are the facts about what these units do and don't do. I can't imagine putting the money into a stage 3 or 4 and trying to "auto tune" it. So ya... I'd say a dyno tune is a must.

Sure... All you'd need is the SEPST. You would likely need to re-calibrate the VE's etc. You could accomplish that by either of two ways...

1) Smart tune/auto tune - results - meh?
2) Dyno tune - assuming a competent pro - likely very good/verifiable results.

Is it? As FLTRI17, max power isn't the target, emissions are. The SEPST can't make adjustments that would cause the bike to no longer be EPA complaint. From what I've read, it can't really adjust the AFR tables, and can only make limited adjustments to VE and spark. From what I gather, you pretty much are confined to the tune you get from HD - which is made for a particular configuration and must be EPA compliant - to which you are able to make minor adjustments that account for differences in individual machines.

 

If we are talking about the SEPST, then see my previous comment.

 

Sorry, I don't remember which direction the VE values were changed. I selected automatically apply recommended changes. The charts I looked at had the colored boxes in the low throttle settings.

Do I need to hook my computer back to the motorcycle to see those charts? I tried looking them up in the SEPST program and couldn't find them.

 

Cant say anything about stage 1, but I ran several smart tunes with the SEPST after the stage 2 was installed. Bike ran significantly better. Ran several more after adding the smart tune pro auto tuning module with the wide band sensors; that really dialed it in.

 

I think staying emissions legal with the tuning will still get you 90% of the way there though. Even fuel motos dyno graph of a stock 107 they tuned with a dynojet didn’t really gain anything. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bike or car get retuned out of emissions compliance and pick up substantial power. The thing that seems to make the biggest difference is cam timing with emissions engines. Look at the LSX crowd, you can swap a cam and gain 50hp and Ive seen dyno runs of 5.3 engines getting retuned with no other changes except adding fuel and timing and they dont really gain anything either. The M8 seems to do the same sorta thing. I need to read up more on what the Harley wideband setup does but I’ve seen lots of positive reviews on it so It must do something. I was mainly just wondering if it could be used to get around running the stock header without voiding your warranty by flashing your ECM. Theoretically, if your dealers cool. Could you put a 222 cam in your bike with a 2-1 exhaust and use Harley’s software to tune it and not worry about your warranty?

 

Why would it gain much if anything if it was still stock? You need to change more than just the tune to achieve significant gains. For example Stage 1 - exhaust and intake. Plus there is more to be gained than just achieving numbers on a dyno. Overall operability/smooth operations etc. etc.

You can maintain lean AFR in low load areas of the performance band to preserve fuel economy and maintain low emissions. But to achieve power - the rule of thumb is that you have to enrich the mixture. Even on stock (EPA compliant) tunes they drop out of closed loop and go richer at the extents (max MAP and RPM regions). Performance builds will not likely have a tune that remains EPA compliant.

It does what I stated before. Quite frankly I can't see any value in it. I've had the DJ Target Tune on my bike for a couple of years now. I'm familiar with how they work. It doesn't matter if you "auto tune" or dyno tune, at the end of the day when all the playing around is done, the STPATM isn't really really doing anything for you that the stock narrow band O2 won't do (and perhaps do better). As I and FLTRI17 have already noted, the range of AFR's that a EPA compliant tune will allow for is within the operating limits of the narrow bands. This covers the vast majority of the table (except the extents where a stock tune running with narrow bands would drop out of closed loop control).

Hell... Some may even have an argument about the value of something like Target Tune. However, if a desired tune had a significant enough area that exceeded the AFR limits of narrow bands, then one could still try to take advantage of the benefits of closed loop control with TT and the wide bands.

On my '09 - which has an older cal strategy - AFR tables cells must be set to 14.6 to enable closed loop. If you look at the AFR table in my original stock tune, all of it - except the extents - is set to 14.6. With TT you can get around that limitation - enrich the mixture a bit if needed - and still maintain closed loop control. On new strategies (which are still EPA compliant), HD increased the AFR range (~ 14.2 to 15.0) that operates in closed loop with the narrow bands. If one wanted to use the newer tune strategy AFR numbers - for whatever reason - on one of these older bikes like mine, they would have to necessarily run open loop (unless they had TT). The Target Tune enabled tune that I have came from Fuel Moto. It's not even close to being EPA compliant. In fact the leanest AFR figure in the table is 14.0. The STPATM can't go there. Sure maybe the STPATM may be able to help me if I wanted to run a tune with an AFR table similar to the newer stock tunes, but why would anybody with an older tune strategy bother with buying a STPATM when they could get a TT (warranty is no longer issue)?

Can the STPATM perhaps make improvements in the VE tables? Ya sure. So yes, it perhaps does something - if you want to look at it that way. But the the SEPST alone with the stock narrow bands can essentially achieve the same. Theoretically, you can cover more of the VE tables with wide bands while auto tuning. In reality - what you can cover on the open road is limited in either case. Plus wide bands have some disadvantages.

So again... I can only see the STPATM as having value for HD in that it serves as a tool to help them separate the ignorant from their money. I haven't heard or seen any argument that makes a valid case in their favor. I'm not closed minded. I'd be interested to hear about a valid use case for them if somebody could offer it.

You could possibly use a piggyback system to get you where you're trying to go. Technically, replacing the stock header alone might put your warranty in jeopardy. Not familiar with the 222 cams... If they are not HD approved, they could also sink your warranty. Does HD provide a tune for the 222? Or one that is at least close? If it isn't close, and presuming that SEPST has limited adjustment range (none in the AFR table) for the tables in play, there might be a problem.

 

Don’t need to look them up, thanks anyway!