This maybe a long post. I hope it's worth the time to all of those who read it...


This thread has been an incredible eye opener for me personally. My thanks to the original thread starter and to all who have posted, especially to Steve Cole, whom I've disagreed with on this forum in the past...

I've been riding motorcycles for 46 years, Harleys for well over 30 years. I started riding at 10. I have never worried about transmission fluid capacity other than in bikes that have one combined sump. You can expect some oil usage when a bike's engine, primary, and trans share the same oil. It is what it is. However, I do not know if I have ever even checked the trans fluid in a Harley big twin other than to verify my correct level after a fluid change. In my experience the trans level does not change. It is always level if it's first set to level. Just change it when the book tells you to. No need to check periodically without an external (oil leak) cause to do so.

In fact, I saw this thread a few times before I decided to read it. It looked like a "my M8 is a POS" thread to me. There have been several M8 "problem" threads since last fall. Some were genuine, some were more alarmist in nature. My M8 has never shown any hint of any problem. Combine this with my 40 year experience with motorcycles and you might see why I never had a personal concern that my bike was "using" or weirder yet, "transferring" transmission fluid. This was really a strange claim - that a Harley was "transferring" gearbox oil to the primary? Hard for me to believe...

I clicked on this thread out of boredom one day. After a few pages in the thread I decided to go to the garage and check my bike's trans fluid level. Heck it's easy to check, but it hadn't been long since I had my dealer do the 1000 mile service. I NEVER let a dealer touch my bike but I thought it was prudent since this is a brand new engine design. I wanted to make sure I kept the warranty intact. So, I overpaid on the service just to "document" the event. I didn't check fluid levels afterwards because really, any "monkey" can do it, right? It's just a fluid change. It's simple...

I didn't expect to find anything out of the ordinary when I checked the trans after reading this thread. My M8 has been an incredible motorcycle. It's the best Harley I have ever thrown a leg over. I could go on and on about this. Smoothness. Tight handling. Torque every where. F*ck, I love this bike!

BUT low and behold, my bike's gearbox was showing NOTHING on the trans dipstick. I checked it twice. Nope. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

No fluid to be seen. Absolutely no fluid on the dipstick.

Then I made a custom dipstick out of a black tie wrap as someone else on this thread had done. Yep, there was some fluid in the trans, but it was significantly lower than the factory dipstick could show.

Either the "monkey" at my dealer severely shorted me on trans fluid, or my bike WAS transferring fluid to the primary. A quick check to the primary showed it was overfilled by several ounces. Yeah, it was clear where the fluid went. Straight from the trans to the primary.

WOW! That is incredible! This transfer should be nearly impossible!

I corrected the fluid imbalance between the trans and primary and spent a week or two testing the transfer. The results of my impromptu test was if I rode the bike VERY conservatively it would not transfer fluid. But even a small amount of spirited riding (anything over 3.8k to just over 4k rpm in short sprints) and the transfer would occur at an alarming rate.

Being the narcissistic selfish man that I am, I started wondering about my trip to Sturgis in a few weeks. Although I've been riding for 4 decades, I've never bothered to go to Sturgis. Large crowds aren't my thing. But after I bought this bike (3 days after the M8 was released last August) my wife and I made plans to go to Sturgis this year. Heck I'd love to see the Black Hills, I've never been there. But now it was May 2017 and I have read this thread and I'm due to leave for Sturgis in July.

I've owned several Harleys in the last 30 years, but this is my first brand new Harley, and I can't depend on it going to Sturgis without some "help" on my part? I spent $26k on this thing! I am pi$$ed! $hit, this is why I didn't ride Harleys in the 70's. I like my bikes to perform as advertised when I get on them. I'm not looking to do a bunch of preparation just to get them to complete a simple trip. My apologies to all those who stuck with HD through the AMF years. Maybe you are all better men than me, but I never liked a bike that took special preparation to do what I thought it should do from the factory. Since the mid 80's none of my previous Harleys (all of them Evos, Twin Cams and a couple Evo Sportsters) needed to be "babied" to perform without incident.

My wife and I decided we were going to Sturgis this year come Hell or high water. Heck we had already made reservations. My plan was to set the primary and trans fluid level to spec, pack a couple quarts of Formula plus and a small tool kit. (A tool kit is something I haven't bothered carrying for decades). I would baby the bike to and from Sturgis at 3K rpm and below, give or take. I'd never ride it "hard". Heck, I wouldn't even ride it "in a sporting manner". I'd check the trans level every day and make adjustments as necessary. My wife and I would see Sturgis and the Black Hills and I would deal with the bike's problems when I returned.

So for any of you checking the calendar - yes we went to Sturgis almost a week early. Many people I respect have told me for years to go the week before. You may miss a couple concerts, but you will avoid the crowds. They were correct. I f'n hate crowds. We left Sunday and came back a day early, today. Personal reasons made us leave for home today.

No matter, my wife and I saw all we wanted to anyway...

From my home to our hotel up there is 410 miles. I ran my bike up there very conservatively, for me at least. This is the western U.S. Lots of highways have 75 and 80 mph speed limits. Heck some parts of Texas have 85mph speed limits. For many hours my bike was at 75 to 83 mph on the way up there. This works out to be about 3k to 3.3k rpm approx.

While the engine was cool at the beginning of the second day I checked the trans and there had been no transfer that I could tell from the dipstick.

Over the next two days we rode through the Black Hills at very moderate speeds/rpm. We were on vacation, and we had a blast. Each morning I would check and I still saw no apparent fluid transfer from the trans to the primary. These two days in the Black Hills we rode about 280 miles total, all at VERY conservative speeds. So for about 690 miles total of pretty conservative riding, I can not document any fluid transfer. There may have been a small amount, but reading the dipstick isn't very accurate and I can not claim any transfer took place during those three days.

Early this morning, for personal reasons, my wife and I decided to head back home. We were looking at another 410 mile day to our house and we were anxious to get it over with. I rode the bike a bit harder today, but not what I would consider "hard" in general. On Hwy 85 through most of southern Wyoming the speed limit is 70mph. At Lusk Wyoming you head west for a small area then south on I-25. On I-25 to about the Colorado border the speed limit is 80mph. For personal reasons, I chose to ignore some of these speed constraints. For the better part of three hours we were exceeding these limits by a bit fairly regularly. I'd say the bike traveled at 3.4 to 3.8 rpm for 2 or 3 hours. A few times the bike may have come close to 4k rpm when passing cars and trucks. Today was fairly cool in temperature. Not much more than 85F. All in all the bike wasn't ridden very hard in my opinion.

After the bike cooled at home, and after my wife and I had looked into the business that brought us home a day early, I measured the trans fluid. It went from about the lower portion of the "F" at the beginning of the day, to the middle of the "A" when we were home. This is past and well below, the large "X" on the center of the stick.

So my personal experience on this trip and before the trip with my M8 is:

When babied - driven at or below 3.3 or lower rpm - there was no measurable decline in trans fluid for about 690 miles. Maybe there was some, but really none to measure or mention.

But above 3.3 rpm it is measurable and documentable over time. Extended travel (350 or more miles) at 3.3 rpm to 3.8 rpm and there will be some significant transfer of fluid.

If you have some fun with the bike locally, take it to 4k or above on even small and rare occasions, mine will puke gearbox oil into the primary drive like crazy. There is no denying it. it happens in a very short period if time. It will run the transmission almost dry very quickly.

This is a SERIOUS problem.

I've been loyal to the MoCo for decades. Crap, I love these bikes. I thought I'd ride them until I die. But HD had better figure this out and take care of us, or I'll be riding a Gold Wing on my next road trip! I did not sign up for or agree to be a beta tester. I'm a motorcyclist before I'm an HD guy. It's been a very long time since I have thought about it in these terms, but that's where i am today.

I enjoy taking old technology, old speed equipment with old cars, and making them perform well. I do this with the deuce highboy in my below picture. I find it rewarding, and therapeutic. I'd like the modern vehicles I purchase to perform in a modern, competent manner. My current Harley does not. I am not inclined to play with it and coax it along. I find that anything but therapeutic.

Peace out....

 

I can feel your pain. Like you I take everything on the web with a grain of salt, but eventually found this happening with my Road King as well.

What's frustrating is the lack of knowledge being passed to the most important links in our chain - the dealerships. There are 4 within an hours ride from here and NONE have any familiarity with this issue.

This lack of 'rapid response' plagued GM through the 70's/80's, and it cost them more than a few customers. Hopefully the moco gets on top of this quickly, and just as quickly comes up with a solution.

Personally, I believe someone here ( Steve Cole? ) may well be the first to enlighten us. For certain he's dedicated more time to this than the dealers...

 

First of all, it's not the dealers responsibilty to research and fix this, it's the Moco. Steve has certainly devoted a lot of time and energy into trying to identify the cause, and he should, and is, being recognized (at least by the user community) for that. A couple of guys on the HTT forum are looking into it as well. There is some speculation that HD has instructed it's dealers to keep quiet about this, unless a customer brings their bike in for that specific issue, in which case they are to deal with THAT customer, and stonewall casual inquiries.

Personally, I don't know if I buy that one, but if true, would indicate two things to me. 1. HD does not have a handle on the true cause of the issue, and 2. The potential scope of the issue, with regards to warranty repairs, scares the bejeezus out of them. People are popping up everyday reporting the problem, like you did, so draw your own conclusions. Remember, this is now HD's 'flagship' engine, so admitting to a potentially huge problem could be, well, a huge problem. Especially if it hasn't been fixed in the 2018 motors. Just my .02

 

So, when HD says they logged x amount of hours on engine testing and fine tuning the M8, I have to assume they NEVER had it bolted to a trans? Because as many in here have proven over 4 grand it pumps the trans dry in short order. You can only miss this during R&D by doing it with only part of the package.IE, just the motor.

 

Well, there's no going back for me. Im stuck. If this does boil down to a huge problem for Harley, I dont imagine my trade value will be worth much. So I guess I will operate at RPM's below 3500..... I really need to start checking mine on a regular basis.

 

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one. I have to assume that their testing included saddle time, along with dyno runs, etc. If they didn't suspect this was an issue, it could have easily been overlooked when fluids were dumped / changed en mass and (presumably, at least) not measured.

In hindsight, we could say that this was irresponsible, or sloppy if you prefer. However, as some have said, this hasn't been an issue for MANY years. I know when I had my 2014 Ultra Limited, the only time I even saw the tranny fluid was when I dumped it for a change, and it went into the same pan as the primary and engine oil, and I definitely did NOT measure them. In the interim, I just added as needed, primarily engine oil. The part of this issue I find most disturbing is that moco seems to be trying to keep this on the 'down low', rather than informing customers to beware and monitor their levels closely until a fix is forthcoming.

 

Couldnt have said it better myself. The second part is the most disturbing. It will come to a head, this isnt going away. Im kind of surprise more of this hasnt been made public. The other issue that disturbs me is, the dealerships dont seem to know anything about this. If they do, they can keep secrets very very good and are in the wrong business.

 

There is a proving grounds in Arizona. While this is 5 year old video, l imagine it still exists.

 

I hear ya and I am trying to give them the BOD but, this was an entirely newly designed motor. The durability of past powertrain designs is meaningless. When Suzuki released the GSXR750, to prove how durable it was they had a bike mag run it 24 hours straight ( stops for fuel, rider and tire changes) on an oval wide open throttle. Teasing them to break it. It didn't break. I just don't accept that they ran them at 5,000 rpm connected to trans or if they did, the trans would have locked up. I'm tempted to start running my RK up above 4,500 to see if it does it . But, I almost don't want to know. Its been fine because I ride it like its a big Briggs and Stratton bolted to a frame and just use the torque.

 

Agree with both of these posts.... and it only makes sense...

The last thing the MoCo, or a dealership wants, is a service department, overflowing with "broken" bikes, that no one knows how to fix.....

We know the MoCo is aware of the problem. I think all will agree it is a major issue with them, or will be if they don't fix it...

The proof will be what the Moco does/says once the fix is known.....

I feel sorry for the uninformed M8 owners, who ride very conservatively, and may have the transfer problem but are blissfully unaware of it... they may not discover it, until the warranty is over....

Then the low mileage, low rpm riders may never know know they have the issue. And based on their riding profile, it won't impact them at all.... but the bike is still not working properly. Sooner or later they will sell the bike and it will become someone's problem... long after warranty is over...

Based on all the threads on this issue, and some of the postings, I keep thinking the fix is just around the corner...!! I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath!