Well I would say that it's pretty obvious that if you can keep oil from getting to the clutch pushrod, you won't have any transfer.. I still suspect that here is something else helping the oil move through the mainshaft to the primary..
There has to be. Either something acting as a pump on the trans side or creating a vacuum on the primary side.
Does anyone with this problem have an old derby cover they could drill a hole in, add an elbow and about a foot of hose facing up to make a primary vent. Ride the bike, see what happens.
Thanks for the clarification Steve. Yeah, as far as the how the oil gets into the pushrod tube... no idea. That's been quite the discussion since day one. I haven't forgotten it, just thought if there was an active vacuum maybe, just maybe when oil is pushed up to the pushrod tube, it's sucking in what is in front of it rather than in the past where there was maybe oil in the area but pressures were neutral so it didn't matter - no sucking.
When you had all that oil in the primary did you test it long like that? Did you think to check engine oil level at that time either? I went and looked at the new primary and what you've stated about crank level being closer to the bottom of the derby cover, makes sense if the primary is already over filled. At normal levels its far below the crank. I wonder if oil was up past this RED mark (cause it sounds like you had a ton of oil) that the spinning rotor kept oil off the crank seal enough that no noticeable primary to engine transfer could take place. I dunno, spit balling.
So you can see below that you probably wouldn't get any primary oil into the engine until it was way, way overfilled.
Your picture appears to be from a Twin Cam and they are different but the general idea is the same. The crankshaft centerline is lower on the M8 and the primary has a dip in it now to allow for that lower centerline. As for how long our bike ran with all that oil in it I really do not know, did not know it was there at the time! The engine oil level was checked several times along the way and as I had said, it was a little lower as time went on. I can tell you that our Ultra Limited had a grand total of 65 miles when the transmission was showing empty on the stick. It was drained and had 8 - 10 oz in it. Refilled the transmission and return it to the dealership. They pulled the derby cover while I was there and they watched it pour out oil. They called HD and were told to refill all oils to proper level and send the bike out and have customer return if more trouble. Bike went back in again at 90 miles with same issue. Now on the waiting game on that one. They also have had the RG in too but I told them I would not leave it with them until they fixed the first one, so we continue to do our work and just keep changing the fluids around for the time being.
High RPM is how it occurs here and the higher the RPM the worse it gets. 3500 and down its a slow process 5000 and up it transfers in 5 - 10 minutes to where the dipstick shows empty and fluid will run out of the derby cover. Very easy to make happen and doing the same on a Twin Cam, NO transfer.
Your picture appears to be from a Twin Cam and they are different but the general idea is the same. The crankshaft centerline is lower on the M8 and the primary has a dip in it now to allow for that lower centerline. As for how long our bike ran with all that oil in it I really do not know, did not know it was there at the time! The engine oil level was checked several times along the way and as I had said, it was a little lower as time went on. I can tell you that our Ultra Limited had a grand total of 65 miles when the transmission was showing empty on the stick. It was drained and had 8 - 10 oz in it. Refilled the transmission and return it to the dealership. They pulled the derby cover while I was there and they watched it pour out oil. They called HD and were told to refill all oils to proper level and send the bike out and have customer return if more trouble. Bike went back in again at 90 miles with same issue. Now on the waiting game on that one. They also have had the RG in too but I told them I would not leave it with them until they fixed the first one, so we continue to do our work and just keep changing the fluids around for the time being.
High RPM is how it occurs here and the higher the RPM the worse it gets. 3500 and down its a slow process 5000 and up it transfers in 5 - 10 minutes to where the dipstick shows empty and fluid will run out of the derby cover. Very easy to make happen and doing the same on a Twin Cam, NO transfer.
Thanks for the info. Yeah, that's my M8 pictured. Notice the new Comp...
Anyway hope something shakes out soon. I was in there today and pulled 3 more ounces out of the primary than I should have. Getting ready to drop the trans and measure.
Thanks for working the problem Steve. We all appreciate it.
Your picture appears to be from a Twin Cam and they are different but the general idea is the same. The crankshaft centerline is lower on the M8 and the primary has a dip in it now to allow for that lower centerline. As for how long our bike ran with all that oil in it I really do not know, did not know it was there at the time! The engine oil level was checked several times along the way and as I had said, it was a little lower as time went on. I can tell you that our Ultra Limited had a grand total of 65 miles when the transmission was showing empty on the stick. It was drained and had 8 - 10 oz in it. Refilled the transmission and return it to the dealership. They pulled the derby cover while I was there and they watched it pour out oil. They called HD and were told to refill all oils to proper level and send the bike out and have customer return if more trouble. Bike went back in again at 90 miles with same issue. Now on the waiting game on that one. They also have had the RG in too but I told them I would not leave it with them until they fixed the first one, so we continue to do our work and just keep changing the fluids around for the time being.
High RPM is how it occurs here and the higher the RPM the worse it gets. 3500 and down its a slow process 5000 and up it transfers in 5 - 10 minutes to where the dipstick shows empty and fluid will run out of the derby cover. Very easy to make happen and doing the same on a Twin Cam, NO transfer.
Holy cow.... Steve, Do you think its like this on all M8's? I will damn sure keep an eye on it. This could be catastrophic for MOCO. Hope they figure it out.
Thanks for the clarification Steve. Yeah, as far as the how the oil gets into the pushrod tube... no idea. That's been quite the discussion since day one. I haven't forgotten it, just thought if there was an active vacuum maybe, just maybe when oil is pushed up to the pushrod tube, it's sucking in what is in front of it rather than in the past where there was maybe oil in the area but pressures were neutral so it didn't matter - no sucking.
When you had all that oil in the primary did you test it long like that? Did you think to check engine oil level at that time either? I went and looked at the new primary and what you've stated about crank level being closer to the bottom of the derby cover, makes sense if the primary is already over filled. At normal levels its far below the crank. I wonder if oil was up past this RED mark (cause it sounds like you had a ton of oil) that the spinning rotor kept oil off the crank seal enough that no noticeable primary to engine transfer could take place. I dunno, spit balling.
So you can see below that you probably wouldn't get any primary oil into the engine until it was way, way overfilled.
Would you object to anyone using your picture of the primary. It would come in handy. I have been testing my M8 at 1250 miles with UV trace in the trans it has shown no clear transfer yet . However The UV trace mixes in fast and for a small amount to show up will take some time. This last time I opened the primary and took a look it was not certain there is trace in it but has me wondering. I have an appointment to drop it off at HD on Saturday.
The primary does appear to be just under 2 OZ over where I had it but no lost shows up on trans dip stick. YET.
Would you object to anyone using your picture of the primary. It would come in handy. I have been testing my M8 at 1250 miles with UV trace in the trans it has shown no clear transfer yet . However The UV trace mixes in fast and for a small amount to show up will take some time. This last time I opened the primary and took a look it was not certain there is trace in it but has me wondering. I have an appointment to drop it off at HD on Saturday.
The primary does appear to be just under 2 OZ over where I had it but no lost shows up on trans dip stick. YET.
Your picture appears to be from a Twin Cam and they are different but the general idea is the same. The crankshaft centerline is lower on the M8 and the primary has a dip in it now to allow for that lower centerline. As for how long our bike ran with all that oil in it I really do not know, did not know it was there at the time! The engine oil level was checked several times along the way and as I had said, it was a little lower as time went on. I can tell you that our Ultra Limited had a grand total of 65 miles when the transmission was showing empty on the stick. It was drained and had 8 - 10 oz in it. Refilled the transmission and return it to the dealership. They pulled the derby cover while I was there and they watched it pour out oil. They called HD and were told to refill all oils to proper level and send the bike out and have customer return if more trouble. Bike went back in again at 90 miles with same issue. Now on the waiting game on that one. They also have had the RG in too but I told them I would not leave it with them until they fixed the first one, so we continue to do our work and just keep changing the fluids around for the time being.
High RPM is how it occurs here and the higher the RPM the worse it gets. 3500 and down its a slow process 5000 and up it transfers in 5 - 10 minutes to where the dipstick shows empty and fluid will run out of the derby cover. Very easy to make happen and doing the same on a Twin Cam, NO transfer.
It looks like that picture is slightly skewed to me. The bottom of the cover sits more level than that which would change the angles of his lines.
07-19-2017, 12:15 PM
I still suspect that here is something else helping the oil move through the mainshaft to the primary..
