hope someone tries this, not up to the task myself, but if so wouldn't a bigger hole be better to test the theory? Vent the hell out of it. 😎

 

i don't think it would take a huge hole. Both the trans and primary shared a 3/16 hole in the twin cam. But yes a bigger one wouldn't hurt. To me a test like this would show weather the primary is pulling the fluid into it (under vacuum) from lack of vent.

 

I've been thinking about this and there may be something to this.. It may be possible that somehow the anti backlash gear is causing the oil to squirt out sideways as the gears mesh but one thing to note is that the backlash part is on the trapdoor bearing side. If it was to act like a seal or block as the gears come together is would squirt out the opposite side and not towards the bearings.. Still I guess there could be enough oil trapped backlash gear that some oil would be picked up by backlash gear and directed. Still if that is the case, a simple gear mesh would squirt oil out both sides and it would probably be more then just a backlash gear. Don't know..

I thing both you and Steve are thinking that movement of the rod/plate is sinusoidal.. It isn't. It's more sloping triangle.. The plate and rod move faster toward the right side of the bike than to the left. This is what I was trying to describe.. For 100 degress it will move to right, for 215 it slips to then left, 100 degrees it's back to the right, and 305 degrees it's back to the left. Process repeats. The rod motion is not symmetrical. The tends to add a higher frequency harmonic to the motion.

 

Again. if it's simply air flow you are correct but ones you start dealing with osculations, you can have issues. You need to start looking at things as tuned cavities. Remember Helmholtz chambers on intakes and exhausts?

 

Remember them well but as I've said plenty of times in this thread and you keep skipping, the same setup in a TwinCam has NO problems! Then, with my bike since it has the AEM lockup device on top of it, the whole idea of pulses goes right out the window. The AEM will not allow them above 3000 RPM as the weight system over takes the ramp action of the A&S clutch assembly. Since transfer is limited to above 3500 RPM and the worst at 6000 RPM I doubt there would be any even without the AEM lockup, as there is just not enough time for the clutch assembly to reverse itself at those speeds, let alone overcome the mass of the rotating system at those RPM's. The only time the A&S has enough time to overcome the mass of the system is on a long decel where the tire is pushing the engine. Something were not going to see in dyno testing.

Lets even take it a little farther too. Lets say there are pulses and they travel at any rate you want, in any direction you want. What is the magnitude of the pulse you think your generating? How are you going to get the oil to get into the pushrod area? You have to do that first, before any transfer can occur. Since the oil level is below this area something needs to make it (oil)travel up hill, through a ~0.060" wide slot, then fill the cavity enough so your pulses could have any effect. You really think your pulses are capable of sucking gear oil up, over an air gap, through an 0.060" slot, filling the cavity and then through a tube 12" length with a pushrod in the center of it and air also in it?

 

Not skipping anything in fact I've repeated the facts as you have sated.. THere are differntces..

Most of the primary / transmission is the same between the TCs using the Slip assist clutch except for the following:

1. On average the M8 makes more power /TQ
2. The M8 tranny has an Anti rattle gear.
3. The configuration of the breather is different. Chamber appears smaller uses a small hose / fitting. There appears to be a wide slot at the bottom of the lower chamber on the M8 and the TC only has a hole..

Are there any other differences?? Please add.

So you are saying that AIM lockup completely eliminates slip? You say 3000 up but It's not a switch, pressure goes up with the square of the RPM.. What about the transition periods? You know say between 2500 and 3500? Have you run the bike on the dyno for 1/2 hour straight at 4500 and not seen any transfer? Have you plotted transfer rate versus RPM?

 

Picked up some UV trace this morning. Added just under 1/2 Oz to transmission.
Not to get in a lube brand war just list it so you know.
Transmission has Spectro 6 Speed SYN
Primary 20/50 M1
Pretty darn sure that has nothing to do with any of this.
It will take a while to mix the trace up good. Took the bike out for a 50 mile ride. Once warmed up rode it hard. Sent a good amount of time just over 4000 rpm's some at 5000 rpms. Up and down through the gears. Rode at 4000 rpms for a few miles in 3 and 4th gear.
Tomorrow I should have time to take it out for some more. When it reaches 100 miles I will open primary and turn on the light. If I see anything it goes straight to HD. If not I will close it back up and test it some more.
The trace UV calls for 1 OZ to 4-5 Quarts. I went with just under 1/2 OZ to allow for the amount in Primary also. Surprised my old UV pen light still works. The Trace is well mixed into the transmission now glows green in UV.
Darn thing sucks fuel when you ride it like that.

 

You have not yet once answer any of the questions I've given you. You have avoided each and everyone!

Let's answer yours:

1. The power output on a stock M8 is less than my TwinCam with our TTS100 cam and exhaust on it, so that again rules that out.
2. Yes, the M8 has an anti rattle 1st gear, may or maynot be part of the issue but in no way effects your pulse theory.
3. We have eliminated the entire breather problem by putting a 3/4" hole directly out of the transmission case, it had no effect! Also the vent hose on the M8 and TC are identical in size! The TwinCam has more than one hole, they are drilled at a downward angle to aid in draining and help keep oil splash from entering them.

The AEM locks the clutch in place, yes as RPM increases it continues to apply more force but once enough force is applied the clutch is locked and there are no pulses being generate. I do not have to go for 1/2 straight as it would have run the transmission dry and burn up by then, not something I'm trying to do. Bring your bike in so I can run that test and burn yours to the ground. Understand your going to need a new engine and transmission, if it even makes the whole 1/2 hour test, better bring a trailer as you going to need it.

So how about you go back and answer the things I've point out.

First and foremost

How is the oil getting to the pushrod area?
If there is no oil in the pushrod area, how can it transfer?
Explain how your pulses (if any) are going to make gear oil travel up hill through a 0.060" slot?
Explain how your pulses (if any) going to keep the gear oil in the pushrod area and not allow it to drain out?
There is an air gap between the pushrod area and the oil level Explain how your pulses are changing that?

 

I've no avoided any of them.. I might have missed them or you missed my responses.. I'll answer them again here.. I don't have any agenda I'm simply interested in this issue.

1. OK I'll agree on that one.

2. We can agree on that.. It may well be the issue or part of it..

3. This is where we disagree but only to a point.. And this is based on the event where adding the slot might have changed the issue.. If it is indeed the solution then it should be repeatable.. If no then it's not.. I can live with that.. I know you like to argue that a hole on one place is the same as one in the other. My experience with electronics and RF definitely says a tweak in one place won't fix a problem in another.. So a 3/4 inch hole in one location won't effect an issue in another when you are dealing with an issue that is caused by a periodic signal of a high enough frequency..

You keep writing AEM.. Isn't it AIM? Anyway, who knows what it's doing.. Have you tried removing it to see if it changes? If you can run the tranny dry in 30 minutes then do for 5.. That's not to hard to figure out..

You points..

1. Absolutely, but also is it the issue?? You experiment says it's at least partly responsible.
2. You have my theory.
3. Not sure what slot you are talking about? (Probably the reason why I haven't answered your previous questions. Didn't under stand if you were asking, or stating) If it the clearance between the tranny cover and trap door I would put more money on the oil coming through the bearing then not flowing out fast enough.. Filling the cavity. First gear is small on the mainshaft and the lay shaft gear picks up the oil from the bottom of the transmission and where the 2 gears meet the oil squirts out in both directions.. I am repeating this... Mentioned it above.. Come to think of it.. Even though the the TC has the gear in the same location, I'd bet because of the backlash/ regular gear mating surface stops the flow across the gear, the rotating gears might even generate oil pressure against the bearing.. (I'm liking this idea better)

4. They are not going to keep oil in the pushrod area, the clutch is going to pump it through..
5, They aren't..

If the Durwood/Herko actaully fixes the issue, I would say it's a pressure pulse thing.. If it don't I'd go with the fix you tried. You just could figure out how keep the oil from getting into the area between the trapdoor and the cover and what is required to get what does out.. It may not need to be a seal, simply a shield to slow the flow and extra clearance between the trapdoor and the cover. Heck it could be a little of both..

Good discussion.. Keep it up..

 

Dumb question. Is there any chance that the primary creates a vacuum and draws the lube over?
Both transmission and Primary get hot if one was to have big enough difference it could cause a vacuum either while heating up or cooling down and help draw some lube over.