Stage II - Do I need to dyno?
#21
02-07-2017, 02:36 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
Yeah, you can get caught up in the 12.5-14.6/1 AFR thing all day long. Depending on if your wide open throttle (or part throttle where most actually ride and will feel it), that ratio varies. Like bwoltz said, ride it.. if your dangerously rich or lean WILL feel it.
#22
02-09-2017, 03:47 AM
Road Master
Amen to your svc mgr. and his integrity. I've never subjected my bike (any more than my Buick) to a dyne session.
Like HD puts it, all of these components are a matched set, and the canned tune presents no issues. Throttle progressivity, no decel pops, no flat spots, etc.
It works simply put, so I won't mess with it. If I were grabbing parts off a shelf and no canned map, then obviously a dyno would probably benefit - but only under those conditions.
To me, pushing to get those last few numbers just isn't worth longevity.
Like HD puts it, all of these components are a matched set, and the canned tune presents no issues. Throttle progressivity, no decel pops, no flat spots, etc.
It works simply put, so I won't mess with it. If I were grabbing parts off a shelf and no canned map, then obviously a dyno would probably benefit - but only under those conditions.
To me, pushing to get those last few numbers just isn't worth longevity.
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mjwebb (02-09-2017)
#23
02-09-2017, 07:56 AM
Amen to your svc mgr. and his integrity. I've never subjected my bike (any more than my Buick) to a dyne session.
Like HD puts it, all of these components are a matched set, and the canned tune presents no issues. Throttle progressivity, no decel pops, no flat spots, etc.
It works simply put, so I won't mess with it. If I were grabbing parts off a shelf and no canned map, then obviously a dyno would probably benefit - but only under those conditions.
To me, pushing to get those last few numbers just isn't worth longevity.
Like HD puts it, all of these components are a matched set, and the canned tune presents no issues. Throttle progressivity, no decel pops, no flat spots, etc.
It works simply put, so I won't mess with it. If I were grabbing parts off a shelf and no canned map, then obviously a dyno would probably benefit - but only under those conditions.
To me, pushing to get those last few numbers just isn't worth longevity.
Then he tells me he doesn't think I should spend the money on the Dyno. $300 in my pocket, and a happy customer. That's good business. I'll probably grab a rain suit that i have been looking at before my discount runs out - it's $300. Win - win!
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Jacker71 (08-11-2020)
#24
02-09-2017, 04:36 PM
Stellar HDF Member
While I realize I am satan because I am a tuner, the purpose of a dyno tune (recalibration) of the engine management system is NOT to produce a dyno sheet for bragging rights.
It is to recalibrate the fueling AND ignition timing (approx 300-400 tune points per cylinder) for best performance, smoothness, throttle response, fuel mileage, decel back firing, cold start, hot start issues get addressed/corrected as the tune goes on.
One of the most important jobs of a dyno tune is to identify any power robbing issues like...
Sumping! A dyno is one of, if not the best, tool for catching poor scavenge performance from the oil pump that can rob a few hp to as much as 30 hp if real bad.
Another invaluable tool is the clutch slip graph that does a brilliant job of identifying when and where the clutch slips. From that we can evaluate whether it's an adjustment issue or a "too much power" issue.
Identifying cam timing issues from being, as just an example, a "tooth" off one of the gears when reassembled.
Identifying and quantifying injector duty cycle for best reliable long term performance. Too much DC and the injector wears out prematurely.
Identifying when and where the ignition timing can be altered to get rid of the knock-retard found I see in the M8s. This stabilizes the performance based on best power without the need to constantly alter.
My bet is the MOCO sets its timing maps based on the fuel they build the calibration with. That's nowhere near real world IME.
Identifying primary chain issues from the pictures the power graphs produce.
Visually identify rear wheel and tire irregularities which much more often than not.
Along with that most tuners will do minor things like tire pressures, nut and bolt tightening and replacement, etc, etc.
All that said, whatever the power that comes from the diagnostic evaluations and tuning is what you get from the build.
There. I'm off my soapbox now
Bob
It is to recalibrate the fueling AND ignition timing (approx 300-400 tune points per cylinder) for best performance, smoothness, throttle response, fuel mileage, decel back firing, cold start, hot start issues get addressed/corrected as the tune goes on.
One of the most important jobs of a dyno tune is to identify any power robbing issues like...
Sumping! A dyno is one of, if not the best, tool for catching poor scavenge performance from the oil pump that can rob a few hp to as much as 30 hp if real bad.
Another invaluable tool is the clutch slip graph that does a brilliant job of identifying when and where the clutch slips. From that we can evaluate whether it's an adjustment issue or a "too much power" issue.
Identifying cam timing issues from being, as just an example, a "tooth" off one of the gears when reassembled.
Identifying and quantifying injector duty cycle for best reliable long term performance. Too much DC and the injector wears out prematurely.
Identifying when and where the ignition timing can be altered to get rid of the knock-retard found I see in the M8s. This stabilizes the performance based on best power without the need to constantly alter.
My bet is the MOCO sets its timing maps based on the fuel they build the calibration with. That's nowhere near real world IME.
Identifying primary chain issues from the pictures the power graphs produce.
Visually identify rear wheel and tire irregularities which much more often than not.
Along with that most tuners will do minor things like tire pressures, nut and bolt tightening and replacement, etc, etc.
All that said, whatever the power that comes from the diagnostic evaluations and tuning is what you get from the build.
There. I'm off my soapbox now
Bob
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msocko3 (02-10-2017),
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#25
02-09-2017, 05:02 PM
While I realize I am satan because I am a tuner, the purpose of a dyno tune (recalibration) of the engine management system is NOT to produce a dyno sheet for bragging rights.
It is to recalibrate the fueling AND ignition timing (approx 300-400 tune points per cylinder) for best performance, smoothness, throttle response, fuel mileage, decel back firing, cold start, hot start issues get addressed/corrected as the tune goes on.
One of the most important jobs of a dyno tune is to identify any power robbing issues like...
Sumping! A dyno is one of, if not the best, tool for catching poor scavenge performance from the oil pump that can rob a few hp to as much as 30 hp if real bad.
Another invaluable tool is the clutch slip graph that does a brilliant job of identifying when and where the clutch slips. From that we can evaluate whether it's an adjustment issue or a "too much power" issue.
Identifying cam timing issues from being, as just an example, a "tooth" off one of the gears when reassembled.
Identifying and quantifying injector duty cycle for best reliable long term performance. Too much DC and the injector wears out prematurely.
Identifying when and where the ignition timing can be altered to get rid of the knock-retard found I see in the M8s. This stabilizes the performance based on best power without the need to constantly alter.
My bet is the MOCO sets its timing maps based on the fuel they build the calibration with. That's nowhere near real world IME.
Identifying primary chain issues from the pictures the power graphs produce.
Visually identify rear wheel and tire irregularities which much more often than not.
Along with that most tuners will do minor things like tire pressures, nut and bolt tightening and replacement, etc, etc.
All that said, whatever the power that comes from the diagnostic evaluations and tuning is what you get from the build.
There. I'm off my soapbox now
Bob
It is to recalibrate the fueling AND ignition timing (approx 300-400 tune points per cylinder) for best performance, smoothness, throttle response, fuel mileage, decel back firing, cold start, hot start issues get addressed/corrected as the tune goes on.
One of the most important jobs of a dyno tune is to identify any power robbing issues like...
Sumping! A dyno is one of, if not the best, tool for catching poor scavenge performance from the oil pump that can rob a few hp to as much as 30 hp if real bad.
Another invaluable tool is the clutch slip graph that does a brilliant job of identifying when and where the clutch slips. From that we can evaluate whether it's an adjustment issue or a "too much power" issue.
Identifying cam timing issues from being, as just an example, a "tooth" off one of the gears when reassembled.
Identifying and quantifying injector duty cycle for best reliable long term performance. Too much DC and the injector wears out prematurely.
Identifying when and where the ignition timing can be altered to get rid of the knock-retard found I see in the M8s. This stabilizes the performance based on best power without the need to constantly alter.
My bet is the MOCO sets its timing maps based on the fuel they build the calibration with. That's nowhere near real world IME.
Identifying primary chain issues from the pictures the power graphs produce.
Visually identify rear wheel and tire irregularities which much more often than not.
Along with that most tuners will do minor things like tire pressures, nut and bolt tightening and replacement, etc, etc.
All that said, whatever the power that comes from the diagnostic evaluations and tuning is what you get from the build.
There. I'm off my soapbox now
Bob
So, Bob...
Are you telling me I should get a dyno? Not looking to pin anyone down, or start a huff... just want to know if I can maximize my engine performance and efficiency with a dyno, or no, the factory map is fine.
Thanks,
Brad
#26
02-09-2017, 07:26 PM
Stellar HDF Member
I always refer folks who ask that question to find someone with a similar bike and rode the bike with a canned map then dyno tuned by a reputable tuner.
What I hear is "smoother, more responsive, cooler, and better mileage"...and yes, they also mention they feel like it has more power.
It doesn't surprise me that owners that have never experienced the difference between untuned vs tuned do not recommend a dyno tune.
They feel their bike is running just fine and can't imagine it running any better.
As far as an eddy brake chassis dyno (ie: Dynojet 250i) being hard on a bike and/or engine...how often do you hear of a bike blowing up on a dyno?
The bike doesn't accelerate you and your bike's combined weight.
The bike has no aero dynamic drag causing resistance to increased speed.
The drum is all the bike has to accelerate.
HTH,
Bob
What I hear is "smoother, more responsive, cooler, and better mileage"...and yes, they also mention they feel like it has more power.
It doesn't surprise me that owners that have never experienced the difference between untuned vs tuned do not recommend a dyno tune.
They feel their bike is running just fine and can't imagine it running any better.
As far as an eddy brake chassis dyno (ie: Dynojet 250i) being hard on a bike and/or engine...how often do you hear of a bike blowing up on a dyno?
The bike doesn't accelerate you and your bike's combined weight.
The bike has no aero dynamic drag causing resistance to increased speed.
The drum is all the bike has to accelerate.
HTH,
Bob
Last edited by FLTRI17; 02-09-2017 at 07:39 PM.
#27
02-09-2017, 07:53 PM
Stellar HDF Member
Amen to your svc mgr. and his integrity. I've never subjected my bike (any more than my Buick) to a dyne session.
Like HD puts it, all of these components are a matched set, and the canned tune presents no issues. Throttle progressivity, no decel pops, no flat spots, etc.
It works simply put, so I won't mess with it. If I were grabbing parts off a shelf and no canned map, then obviously a dyno would probably benefit - but only under those conditions.
To me, pushing to get those last few numbers just isn't worth longevity.
Like HD puts it, all of these components are a matched set, and the canned tune presents no issues. Throttle progressivity, no decel pops, no flat spots, etc.
It works simply put, so I won't mess with it. If I were grabbing parts off a shelf and no canned map, then obviously a dyno would probably benefit - but only under those conditions.
To me, pushing to get those last few numbers just isn't worth longevity.
Remember lean is clean AND hot. Just a little goes a long way to cool things down a bit.
Also if canned maps were the way to go there would be no tuners needed.
If canned maps work for all exhaust - cam - intake combos it would be great.
Just doesn't happen...
Bob
#28
02-10-2017, 10:44 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
While I realize I am satan because I am a tuner, the purpose of a dyno tune (recalibration) of the engine management system is NOT to produce a dyno sheet for bragging rights.
It is to recalibrate the fueling AND ignition timing (approx 300-400 tune points per cylinder) for best performance, smoothness, throttle response, fuel mileage, decel back firing, cold start, hot start issues get addressed/corrected as the tune goes on.
One of the most important jobs of a dyno tune is to identify any power robbing issues like...
Sumping! A dyno is one of, if not the best, tool for catching poor scavenge performance from the oil pump that can rob a few hp to as much as 30 hp if real bad.
Another invaluable tool is the clutch slip graph that does a brilliant job of identifying when and where the clutch slips. From that we can evaluate whether it's an adjustment issue or a "too much power" issue.
Identifying cam timing issues from being, as just an example, a "tooth" off one of the gears when reassembled.
Identifying and quantifying injector duty cycle for best reliable long term performance. Too much DC and the injector wears out prematurely.
Identifying when and where the ignition timing can be altered to get rid of the knock-retard found I see in the M8s. This stabilizes the performance based on best power without the need to constantly alter.
My bet is the MOCO sets its timing maps based on the fuel they build the calibration with. That's nowhere near real world IME.
Identifying primary chain issues from the pictures the power graphs produce.
Visually identify rear wheel and tire irregularities which much more often than not.
Along with that most tuners will do minor things like tire pressures, nut and bolt tightening and replacement, etc, etc.
All that said, whatever the power that comes from the diagnostic evaluations and tuning is what you get from the build.
There. I'm off my soapbox now
Bob
It is to recalibrate the fueling AND ignition timing (approx 300-400 tune points per cylinder) for best performance, smoothness, throttle response, fuel mileage, decel back firing, cold start, hot start issues get addressed/corrected as the tune goes on.
One of the most important jobs of a dyno tune is to identify any power robbing issues like...
Sumping! A dyno is one of, if not the best, tool for catching poor scavenge performance from the oil pump that can rob a few hp to as much as 30 hp if real bad.
Another invaluable tool is the clutch slip graph that does a brilliant job of identifying when and where the clutch slips. From that we can evaluate whether it's an adjustment issue or a "too much power" issue.
Identifying cam timing issues from being, as just an example, a "tooth" off one of the gears when reassembled.
Identifying and quantifying injector duty cycle for best reliable long term performance. Too much DC and the injector wears out prematurely.
Identifying when and where the ignition timing can be altered to get rid of the knock-retard found I see in the M8s. This stabilizes the performance based on best power without the need to constantly alter.
My bet is the MOCO sets its timing maps based on the fuel they build the calibration with. That's nowhere near real world IME.
Identifying primary chain issues from the pictures the power graphs produce.
Visually identify rear wheel and tire irregularities which much more often than not.
Along with that most tuners will do minor things like tire pressures, nut and bolt tightening and replacement, etc, etc.
All that said, whatever the power that comes from the diagnostic evaluations and tuning is what you get from the build.
There. I'm off my soapbox now
Bob
I always refer folks who ask that question to find someone with a similar bike and rode the bike with a canned map then dyno tuned by a reputable tuner.
What I hear is "smoother, more responsive, cooler, and better mileage"...and yes, they also mention they feel like it has more power.
It doesn't surprise me that owners that have never experienced the difference between untuned vs tuned do not recommend a dyno tune.
They feel their bike is running just fine and can't imagine it running any better.
As far as an eddy brake chassis dyno (ie: Dynojet 250i) being hard on a bike and/or engine...how often do you hear of a bike blowing up on a dyno?
The bike doesn't accelerate you and your bike's combined weight.
The bike has no aero dynamic drag causing resistance to increased speed.
The drum is all the bike has to accelerate.
HTH,
Bob
What I hear is "smoother, more responsive, cooler, and better mileage"...and yes, they also mention they feel like it has more power.
It doesn't surprise me that owners that have never experienced the difference between untuned vs tuned do not recommend a dyno tune.
They feel their bike is running just fine and can't imagine it running any better.
As far as an eddy brake chassis dyno (ie: Dynojet 250i) being hard on a bike and/or engine...how often do you hear of a bike blowing up on a dyno?
The bike doesn't accelerate you and your bike's combined weight.
The bike has no aero dynamic drag causing resistance to increased speed.
The drum is all the bike has to accelerate.
HTH,
Bob
Perhaps to justify his existence, perhaps to objectively demonstrate the before and after, a dyno run was also suggested. BTW, I have NOT laminated the graph and do not carry a copy in my wallet. I don't even share the results on this Forum to "brag"; after all, WTF did I do besides open my wallet [happily I might add]? Long story short, the bike still runs hot, but there has been a noticeable improvement. In addition, I've noticed better performance, engine smoothness [except idle remains about the same as before] and throttle response. If I rode exclusively solo, I certainly did NOT need any of the performance enhancements; however, I ride about 80% two-up, and these enhancements are greatly appreciated and well-worth the money. YMMV
#29
02-10-2017, 11:11 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
OK. Me being one of those guys that could have gone from purchase to sale of my '14 Ultra and left it completely stock, I'll give you my observations. The sole issue I was concerned about and felt I had to take some action to correct was engine heat. My general understanding was enriching the air/fuel could help. So, I was already 3/4 toward map adjustments. Seeking the advice of the dreaded "dyno guy", the following was suggested: 1) an Arlen Ness "Big Sucker" air cleaner, 2) install Power Commander V, 3) custom remap of A/F. (A muffler change was also suggested, which I declined.)
Perhaps to justify his existence, perhaps to objectively demonstrate the before and after, a dyno run was also suggested. BTW, I have NOT laminated the graph and do not carry a copy in my wallet. I don't even share the results on this Forum to "brag"; after all, WTF did I do besides open my wallet [happily I might add]? Long story short, the bike still runs hot, but there has been a noticeable improvement. In addition, I've noticed better performance, engine smoothness [except idle remains about the same as before] and throttle response. If I rode exclusively solo, I certainly did NOT need any of the performance enhancements; however, I ride about 80% two-up, and these enhancements are greatly appreciated and well-worth the money. YMMV
Perhaps to justify his existence, perhaps to objectively demonstrate the before and after, a dyno run was also suggested. BTW, I have NOT laminated the graph and do not carry a copy in my wallet. I don't even share the results on this Forum to "brag"; after all, WTF did I do besides open my wallet [happily I might add]? Long story short, the bike still runs hot, but there has been a noticeable improvement. In addition, I've noticed better performance, engine smoothness [except idle remains about the same as before] and throttle response. If I rode exclusively solo, I certainly did NOT need any of the performance enhancements; however, I ride about 80% two-up, and these enhancements are greatly appreciated and well-worth the money. YMMV
Nice thing about the later bikes with the 8 valve head and head pipe with cat is that changes to mufflers and air cleaner won't make much difference in the way the bike is tuned.
Another thing to watch out for is that the guy doing the tune can bias the output.. Not saying yours was done that way but it does happen..
Add. BTW.. Notice that you dyno sheet shows the first pull as run 1.. Was the bike up to temp, the dyno warmed up and already as few pulls to ensure the bike was giving consistent readings for HP output?
Last edited by Max Headflow; 02-10-2017 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Add
#30
02-10-2017, 01:54 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
About 2 weeks ago I talked to one of the people I consider the one best tuners in the country. he's semi retired but still active helping others. He mentioned the new street tuner and the maps. From what he's seen the new maps are much better than the older ones and are very close.. IIRc someone on this board actually tuned stage 1 or 2 with the street tuner and got maybe a foot pound and 2 mid range but not much else..
Nice thing about the later bikes with the 8 valve head and head pipe with cat is that changes to mufflers and air cleaner won't make much difference in the way the bike is tuned.
Another thing to watch out for is that the guy doing the tune can bias the output.. Not saying yours was done that way but it does happen..
Add. BTW.. Notice that you dyno sheet shows the first pull as run 1.. Was the bike up to temp, the dyno warmed up and already as few pulls to ensure the bike was giving consistent readings for HP output?
Nice thing about the later bikes with the 8 valve head and head pipe with cat is that changes to mufflers and air cleaner won't make much difference in the way the bike is tuned.
Another thing to watch out for is that the guy doing the tune can bias the output.. Not saying yours was done that way but it does happen..
Add. BTW.. Notice that you dyno sheet shows the first pull as run 1.. Was the bike up to temp, the dyno warmed up and already as few pulls to ensure the bike was giving consistent readings for HP output?
Thereafter, there was about a 30-45 minute delay for install of the air cleaner and PCV where the bike undoubtedly cooled down. However, there were several runs where readouts were evaluated and tweaks were done to A/F. Again, I'm not sure if this constituted sufficient "warm up".