Probably the most productive step the MoCo have taken to allay the fears of current and prospective M8 owners
(and I do believe the Moco have had a hand in the release of the video)
a lot of people will be a little bit relieved by this
Put a better spin on the situation rather than fix anything
One of the things the guy said that bothered me regarding trans oil transfer is that he was dismissive of the problem because it was more likely due to an overfilled primary.
Several problems with this statement: 1) how exactly do you over fill the primary? The fill level is to the lip of the derby cover opening. Can someone tell me how you can fill it past the lip of the opening? 2) if true, because I think the number of Harley owners who change their own primary oil is very small, he's basically saying there are a lot of bad Harley dealer techs over filling the primary.
Interesting perspective but its also interesting when given the chance to say if he'd buy a new M8 bike, he didn't say he'd buy a 2017 or 2018 M8. He simply said he'd buy an M8.
I suspect what he's say is he'd buy a 2019 M8. Duhhhh, most of us have already figured that part out. Now if he came out and said he'd have no issue buying a 2017 or 2018 M8, that would be a sign of real confidence. I'd be interested to know how many M8 bikes his dealership has serviced. I'm guessing maybe 100-200. Maybe?? Not the best of samples when looking at the failure in about 400,000 M8 bikes sold (my guess of M8 units sold).
Rather than speculate, I asked John Maxwell if he would stay away from the 17's & 18's in hopes the MOCO corrects the issues on the 19's. He is not saying to stay away from anything, but is looking to buy new himself.
I took away from him, being a subject matter expert and based on his professional opinion, saying don't not buy one based on the internet reports which have blown things way out of proportion..and they only see 1 or 2 transmission problems in an entire year, and they don't have a dedicated 'transmission guy' because he would be like the
Given the size of this dealership, I suspect you posted a pic of their sales guy, not their tech. His perspective on the # of issues he’s seen on the M8 is rather remarkably small. Ask him how many M8 bikes the dealership has sold (therefore some perspective on the size of the service shop) and then his “perspective” might be relevent. They are a very small dealership.
Given the size of this dealership, I suspect you posted a pic of their sales guy, not their tech. His perspective on the # of issues he’s seen on the M8 is rather remarkably small. Ask him how many M8 bikes the dealership has sold (therefore some perspective on the size of the service shop) and then his “perspective” might be relevent. They are a very small dealership.
Matt Laidlaw, from Laidlaw HD commented on John Maxwell's video. Laidlaw's is a high volume dealer serving the Los Angeles area. He stated that issues related to the video represent less than 1% of all M8's on the road. Biased, maybe, after all he makes his living selling HDs. Only the MOCO knows the true number, and I doubt that number will ever be made public.
One of the things the guy said that bothered me regarding trans oil transfer is that he was dismissive of the problem because it was more likely due to an overfilled primary.
Several problems with this statement: 1) how exactly do you over fill the primary? The fill level is to the lip of the derby cover opening. Can someone tell me how you can fill it past the lip of the opening? 2) if true, because I think the number of Harley owners who change their own primary oil is very small, he's basically saying there are a lot of bad Harley dealer techs over filling the primary.
Help me out here...
The guy is talking honestly based on his experience. OIl is not level with the opening in the primary clutch cover, it's supposed to touch the bottom of the basket with the bike level. He probably not seen a bike where when its level, dumps oil out of the primary from xfer. Also HD went to a smaller thinner primary on the some of the newer bikes. I could see those sing overfilled as the tech/owner likely just dumped a fixed amount and didn't check the whether it was touching the bottom of the basket when level. Owners probably got their info off the internet.
Matt Laidlaw, from Laidlaw HD commented on John Maxwell's video. Laidlaw's is a high volume dealer serving the Los Angeles area. He stated that issues related to the video represent less than 1% of all M8's on the road. Biased, maybe, after all he makes his living selling HDs. Only the MOCO knows the true number, and I doubt that number will ever be made public.
I don't doubt the incidence of these issues is low but I suspect its higher than 1% on sumping and more than 1% on fluid transfer. I base that on just my gut so its not a very reliable estimate. And my gut gets the incidence of these issues from the number of new cases reported in HDForum and at my local dealer (modest size dealership). By my reckoning, there are about 1-2 new sumping cases reported each week in HDForum. Given that the number of HD M8 owners that are also members of HD forums is probably pretty low, my gut tells me the incidence is higher than most other MAJOR engine defects HD has experienced in the last several decades. I can't ever recall an new engine design defect that resulted in as many engine replacements under warranty in such a short period of time as we've read about on this forum. Even the lifter and cam tensioner issues of the TC didn't result in this incidence of engine failure.
I also suspect the incidence of failure will only increase as more miles are ridden on 2017 & 2018 M8 bikes. While I don't think it's likely to be double digits, I'm pretty confident that the incidence of sumping and or fluid transfer is in the solid single digits. And from my perspective that's a pretty crappy launch of a new product or new design. Too many shortcuts taken in development, too many budget cuts in design, too few hours/miles in testing, too many slashed budgets in production. HD will need to stick with the M8 engine design for a long time (with refinements) because its highly doubtful knowledgeable HD customers will EVER again trust the first few years launch of a new HD engine design in the future.
The guy is talking honestly based on his experience. OIl is not level with the opening in the primary clutch cover, it's supposed to touch the bottom of the basket with the bike level. He probably not seen a bike where when its level, dumps oil out of the primary from xfer. Also HD went to a smaller thinner primary on the some of the newer bikes. I could see those sing overfilled as the tech/owner likely just dumped a fixed amount and didn't check the whether it was touching the bottom of the basket when level. Owners probably got their info off the internet.
I'm not sure you're quite right about this. See pic below. I think its difficult to over fill this by the amount of the loss people are seeing from the transmission. Plus I think all the touring bikes use the narrow primary now, but I could be wrong.
The guy is talking honestly based on his experience. OIl is not level with the opening in the primary clutch cover, it's supposed to touch the bottom of the basket with the bike level. He probably not seen a bike where when its level, dumps oil out of the primary from xfer. Also HD went to a smaller thinner primary on the some of the newer bikes. I could see those sing overfilled as the tech/owner likely just dumped a fixed amount and didn't check the whether it was touching the bottom of the basket when level. Owners probably got their info off the internet.
He also mentioned that the primary's capacity has changed on the M8s. Perhaps some techs/owners are refilling based on previous capacities. Certainly not an excuse for overfilling, but a plausible cause when attempting to verify transfer rate.
I'm not sure you're quite right about this. See pic below. I think its difficult to over fill this by the amount of the loss people are seeing from the transmission. Plus I think all the touring bikes use the narrow primary now, but I could be wrong.
You are right bottom of pressure plate. I typically only fill to where I see the bottom of basket. Only about 1/8 inch difference. Still it's way below the hole in the inspection cover.
07-26-2018, 01:22 AM
