Bike ran pretty well last year and sat through the winter. I did the usual spring clean out of the S&S Super E carb including the jets. Put everything back together only to find the fuel shutoff valve had clogged. No worries 45 minutes and a new tank of gas later that problem was resolved. So here I am helmet in hand ready to go for the year. This was a month ago and I still haven't made any progress.

Symptoms:

Starts (Electric)with the choke will run for about 2 minutes, then it will **** and moan and shut off. Odd thing is, it is giving me conflicting reports. Sometimes I get the popping and back firing in the carb, other times I get the gurgling and stumbling. Clearly (in my experience) these indicate two different symptoms and I have played hell with this thing for a month now trying to figure out what it is telling me.

I have gone through the S&S baseline test about 5 separate times now, and I keep getting the same thing. I have had the carb apart about a dozen times, tried re-jetting, tried original jetting, mix of the two and am now back at the original jetting.

I have gone through the S&S Rebuild Instructions twice now verifying everything in the carb is hunky dory and I can't find anything out of place. Even that troublesome little spring is in place where it should be.


I'm at the point now where I'm ready to rip this Super E off and go back to the original Carb, which I still have lying around. If anybody has any ideas I'm all ears.

 

Messing with the carb seems to be going nowhere. Perhaps the problem lies elsewhere. Try this, in this order ...

1. Start with the carb at baseline settings

2. Check the pushrod adjustment. Do this with the engine stone cold - i do it first thing in the morning.

3. Check for intake and exhaust leaks. It is impossible to tune a carb if these leaks exist.

4. Check the ignition timing.

Here are some notes:

Ironhead Push Rod Adjustment

Do this procedure with the engine stone cold. I usually do it first thing in the morning.

1. Remove the spark plugs. Remove A/C to make room to work.

2. Using a flat blade screwdriver pry the spring keeper off of each push rod; the bottom of the keeper pops out first, then the top. Alternately, use a 3/4" open end wrench to push down on the top of the spring retainer, then pry out the spring keeper with the screwdriver.

3. The lower push rod covers may be stuck tight against the bottom o-rings, but they can be loosened by pinching between thumb and finger [or carefully using a shop rag and a pliers] and twisting or rotating. Lift these up and secure each with a tall-S-shaped piece of 12 or 14 gauge household wire [not cable] [or a long piece of Plumbers solder such as 95/5 hooked over the rocker cover and under the push rod cover.

4. Jack up back end of the bike so that rear wheel is off the ground, shift to 2nd gear, rotate wheel until it clicks, repeat until you get to 4th gear. Now by rotating the rear wheel you are rotating the engine. Almost impossible with the plugs in; very difficult in lower gears.

5. To adjust a particular push rod, its valve must be fully closed [the valve spring is relaxed]. Valve position for a particular cylinder is determined by observing the corresponding push rod of the other cylinder. For example, when the rear cylinder intake valve tappet is raised [valve fully open, spring compressed], the front cylinder intake valve is fully closed, and the front intake push rod can be adjusted.

6. Check [and adjust if necessary] the push rods:

[a] use the rear wheel rotate the engine so that the rear cylinder exhaust push rod tappet is fully raised. The front cylinder push rod is adjusted correctly if it has no vertical or horizontal play, and you can just rotate the push rod between thumb and forefinger with no trace of binding or dragging.

[b] to adjust if needed: hold the adjusting screw in place with a wrench; with another wrench loosen the split locknut. Then turn the adjusting screw using fingers only until the pushrod's ball end is seated in the tappet with a "slight amount of play". Then tighten further as follows:

Option 1: Adjust on the tighter end of the range: There should be no vertical or horizontal play, and you should be just able to rotate the push rod between thumb and forefinger with no trace of binding or dragging.

Option 2: Adjust on the looser end of the range: Set the adjusting screw to finger tight so that you cannot turn the push rod between forefinger and thumb. Undo it a tiny bit so that it is just barely loose. Then loosen it 1 "side" for an exhaust or 1/2 "side" for an intake. "Side" refers to one side of the 6-sided adjusting nut.

EDIT: Experience here is that Option 2 is the better and most likely the correct choice.

[c] hold the adjusting screw in place with the one wrench; with the other wrench tighten the locknut.

[d] recheck the adjustment; it is common for the adjustment to go out as you do step [c], in which case [b] and [c] must be redone.

[e] repeat for the other push rods.

7. Use a flat blade screwdriver to push the upper push rod covers up, and seat them into the upper o-ring or cork washer.

8. Install the spring keepers, top end first, by prying them in under the bottom with a flat blade screwdriver.
========================

Intake And Exhaust Leaks Tests

You cannot get a good tuneup if there are intake leaks or exhaust leaks.

1. Check for Intake Leaks

With the engine idling spray propane gas or WD-40 around the carb/intake/cylinder head joints. Propane is best because it leaves no mess, and is most easily sucked in thru leaks. WD-40 is said to work well because it has very fine spray droplets. Be careful to not allow any of either to get sucked in thru the A/C as this will invalidate the results.

Any change in engine RPM is a leak which must be fixed.

EDIT: Experience is that this procedure will identify larger intake leaks, but it may miss very small leaks that also must be fixed. And that propane is definetly the better choice.

2. Check for Exhaust Leaks

Pour about 1/2 ounce of oil into each cylinder thru the spark plug holes. Run the engine at idle. You will get lots of smoke for about 5 minutes.

All smoke should come from the ends of the exhaust pipes/mufflers. Any other is a leak which must be fixed.
==============================

Setting The Ignition Timing on Your IronHead

1. Checking vs Setting the Ignition Timing

You can check the timing without changing anything. Changing the timing can be done by one person but is easier with two. The ignition module or points is on the right side of the bike, the timing hole is on the left side. Easier with one person on each side than to go back and forth. Standard advance for the 1980 XL is 40`. I have mine set at about 35`. At 38` i get pinging.

2. Equipment That You Need

You need an induction timing light which you can buy at any auto supply store. Best to get the "dial back" type. These allow you to set a number [like 35`] into the timing light and then adjust the ignition module/points backplate until you are there.

If you have very well insulated spark plug wires the timing light may not sense the signal thru the wire. If this is the case then open the gap on the spark plug to 050 or more. Reset it to your normal gap [030 for points or 040 for electronic] when done with this procedure.

It also helps to have a throttle lock as the timing should be checked/set with the engine at 2500 to 3000 RPM.

You will need a piece of rubber oil line hose about 1 inch long. Press one end up against the side of a stone grinding wheel [or whatever] to make sure it is perfectly flat.

3. Front Cylinder: TDC Mark vs Advance Timing Mark

The TDC [Top Dead Center] mark is used with a dial back timing light to check the timing, or to set the timing at a specific degree, such as 37`. The advance timing mark is used to set the timing to the factory setting, such as 40`. Best is to use a dial back timing light to check or set timing.

4. To Identify Your Front Cylinder TDC Timing Mark

Remove spark plugs. Rear wheel off the ground, shift to 2nd gear, rotate wheel until it clicks, repeat until you get to top gear. Now by rotating the rear wheel you are rotating the engine. Almost impossible with the plugs in; very difficult in lower gears.

You want the front cyl to be at TDC. You can see in thru the spark plug hole, especially with a flash light; you can try inserting something soft like a pencil and watch it rise and fall as you rotate the engine with the back wheel but be careful it does not break or get stuck! You will have to hang on to the pencil with left hand while rotating the rear wheel with the right. Helps to have a good wingspan, or an extra person.

With the piston at precisely TDC look in thru the timing hole. You should see a drilled dot or a line. That is your front cylinder TDC mark. Once you know for certain what the TDC mark looks like you can check the timing.

5. Procedure, Checking The Timing

Begin with the engine at operating temperature. Remove the timing plug from the left side of the engine. Insert the 1" hose smooth end first, right tight up against the flywheel. I use a needle nose plier and twist it in there as firmly as i can. If it is not smooth and tight against the flywheel oil will spray out while you are working.

Start the engine, have it at about 2500 to 3000 RPM [it will be extra noisy with the timing plug out], set the timing light at 40`, aim it into the timing hole thru the hose. Click it down one degree at a time while you look for the timing mark. If you don't find it you may have to work up from 40`.

If it is in the 35` to 40` range and there is no pinging then you may wish to leave it as is. With pinging on acceleration you may want to retard it by about 1/16 of an inch or less [see Math below].

6. Procedure, Setting the Timing

Remove the points cover from the right side. You will be rotating the back plate so first mark it so you can get back to the current position if needed. Make a scratch mark or use a permanent magic marker, or better still a small bright red or whatever color paint mark.

To change the timing loosen the two standoffs holding the points/ignition module and rotate the backplate. Clockwise advances [larger degree number] counter-clockwise retards [smaller degree number].

7. Some Math, How Much to Rotate

The backplate has a 3" diameter = 1.5" radius.
The circumference = 2 * pi * radius = 2 * 3.14 * 1.5 inches = 9.42 inches
The circumference = 9.42 * 16 ~= 151 sixteenths of an inch.

One rotation of the backplate corresponds to two rotations of the engine, so it is like a circle that has 2 * 360 = 720 degrees. 720 / 151 ~= 5

Therefore a rotation of the backplate by about 1/16 of an inch results in a timing change of almost 5 degrees!
====================

 

Agreed - logic tells me if you have rebuilt your carb before successfully, and you've gone over it meticulously this go around, it's probably not the source of the problem.

So, the bike will run right now, it's just running like junk, right? I would do like Mick says and start with the pushrods and timing. If you've been tinkering with the carb, it's possible you developed a leak, too - so I also agree there.

You've only got fuel, fire, and air. If you're ignition is good (84 is EI, yes?), coil is good, plugs are good / gapped correctly, that'll eliminate that much.

Take it a step at a time. Maybe it's not that carb.

As a second thought, did you try starting it before you cleaned the carb this spring, or did you jump right into the rebuild? If so, how was it running before / after?

Good luck.


- Al

Afterthought: You have a VOES there, too, right? Might be worth making sure your advance is in good working order.

 

Will the bike run is a sore subject simply because it will run for about 2 minutes before it goes **** up. Technically it will get warm from the constant restarts, but technically the bike never settles in and gets stabilized at a good rpm/sound for more then a minute or two.

VOES is disconnected on this bike. I'm not the original owner so I have the plugged spigot version of VOES if you're talking about what I think you're talking about.

 

I would go back to your original problem, no fuel. You said petcock was plugged, did you make sure fuel line was clear and that VENT was also clear.

 

You have been fooling around with that S&S far too long.
If it were me, I would put the original carb back on and see what it does. That makes more sense than taking the S&S off time and time again, and having no improvement.

If it starts and runs well with the original carb, then you know there is some problem with the S&S.

On the other hand, if it acts the same then you know (it is probably) not the S&S but rather something else.
In that case, leave the original carb installed and look elsewhere (that will be the ignition and timing) to find the problem.
pg

 

VOES is your advance unit if you have electronic ignition. If you have points, you don't have a VOES, and should check your points / condensers for issues, maybe even your mechanical advance weights (little obscure there, but I'm trying!)

If you DO have a VOES, it connects into your S&S through a port on the top I believe, with a small bit of hose that leads to the actual unit. If that advance unit is supposed to be hooked up and isn't, that's a problem right there I wager. My '83 was converted back from EI to points, however, so my VOES knowledge is limited. I'd check your manual about it.


- Al

 

So, we should clear up the ingition question. It originally did have electronic ignition with a VOES. The VOES is disconnected so the EI has probably been replaced with points. But we have to know for ceratin. Look under that round cover on the right side and tell us what is there. If it is points ignition then there are some parts there that need to be replaced.

Also be aware that aftermarket points components are nortoriously bad. Many are absolute junk and quite simply will not work under any circumstances. Only buy American made points components such as ACCELL brand.

 

I do not know that I can agree with you on that Mick. I believe if you look close enough you might find the Accell are made somewhere else other than the US. Most (or I should say many) electrical parts are made in Mexico. This is the case for cars and for bikes.
The Mexican made points are certainly not junk. The Blue Streak are sold as USA made, but if you look close they are actually an import item.
Harley points are made in Mexico as is stamped clearly on the bag. They also are clearly a very high quality set of points. Much more so than the Blue Streak in my experience...... pg

 

For points and condensers I go to the local auto parts store and get a set for a 1976 Chevy pickup truck with a straight six. Everything is the same and they are always good quality.