ironhead ignition problem, help needed
#1
07-30-2007, 07:25 PM
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ironhead ignition problem, help needed
my brother has a 73 sporty that has what everyone keeps trying to tell me is an impossible problem that started about 6 months ago..after being ridden hard, even on short trips to the water hole, we would have to advanve the timing a bit to get it to restart..either hot or cold....once advanced there is no retarding it either as it puts it way off time {won't crank, runs like a sick turtle, etc.}....we asked around but everyone only says its impossible....we changed advance weights,,...as the advance slot started nearing the end he bought {at someones advice} a 300 something dollar crane electronic setup and did away with the points..still the same thing happens, especially after high speed jaunts around a 100 or so...we have now reached the end of the advance slot and it needs advanced moreas it will not even start at this point due to being out of time....the motor was built by a well known racer/builder in the business over 40 years and has seen near continuous short trip use for about 2 years without a problem before this....anyone know what to do about fixing this supposed impossible problem ???? nbf,,
#2
07-30-2007, 07:49 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
First of all, buying an electronic ignition did not help you, did it? To all those out there who think an electronic ignition is the cat's meow, just take note.
I suggest this:
Set the ignition to where it will start and fire it off. Next put a timing light on it and see what the ignition timing looks like. At 2000 rpms the slash mark needs to be dead center in the hole. If it is not, then adjust the timing so that it is. If it will not start after that, you have other problems other than ignition and timing........pg
I suggest this:
Set the ignition to where it will start and fire it off. Next put a timing light on it and see what the ignition timing looks like. At 2000 rpms the slash mark needs to be dead center in the hole. If it is not, then adjust the timing so that it is. If it will not start after that, you have other problems other than ignition and timing........pg
#3
07-31-2007, 09:29 AM
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RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
no it didn't help like i told my brother it wouldn't..its was getting fire but you know how it goes, some people won't listen, especially when they want to ride.....as i posted to begin with, the bike will not crank..its out of time {retarded}and needs advanced further than the advance slot will allow..you can not time it even close enough to crank due to this....before it got to this point we could time it dead on with a light, do a few mile hard ride, and would have to advance it again to get it in time again....we advanced it just a bit, several times, after riding,till the point there is no advance left....i do not know what the actual problem is but i do know it is affecting the timing, now to a point the bike is unstartable, due to being out of time....i was hoping someone here could provide some insight as to the cause and or remedy....i already know there is a problem, and i know its affecting the timing..what the problem actually is is a ?????????.....nbf
#4
07-31-2007, 10:48 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
Well, all I can say is you are missing something here. The ignition cannot be so far off that you have run out of slot to crank it. The only way this could happen is if you had the rear intake cam way out of time, then the bike would never run right.
If it were me, I would begin by putting the points and condenser back on the bike. Then just go through the exercise of setting the points gap and timing. Maybe the problem is with the installation of that electronic ignition, who knows. I just know that what you describe cannot be possible if everything else is correctly timed and installed.
The engine rotates to TDC. The points should start to open about 45 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke. Nice and simple. What that electronic ignition is doing I have no idea. Good luck with it.........pg
If it were me, I would begin by putting the points and condenser back on the bike. Then just go through the exercise of setting the points gap and timing. Maybe the problem is with the installation of that electronic ignition, who knows. I just know that what you describe cannot be possible if everything else is correctly timed and installed.
The engine rotates to TDC. The points should start to open about 45 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke. Nice and simple. What that electronic ignition is doing I have no idea. Good luck with it.........pg
#5
07-31-2007, 11:53 AM
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RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
yes i am missing something....yes i hear its impossible....BUT it is happening....something is so far off that we have run out of slot.....before getting to this point each time we reset timing {always advancing} the bike ran perfecto until ridden with enthusiasm....the problem was there well before the electronics were installed..they were installed as a last ditch effort before we got to the end of the timing slot,,,the electronic ignition isn't doing anything.....the timing can not be set as it needs advancing and there is no advance left.......nbf
#6
07-31-2007, 12:56 PM
RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
PG said:
The ignition cannot be so far off that you have run out of slot to crank it. The only way this could happen is if you had the rear intake cam way out of time, then the bike would never run right.
You can confirm this by checking the timing by the static method.
It will prove whether the rear intake cam and advance are right or not.
BTW forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but you move the points plate clockwise to advance the timing.
Put the points in it, and set em correctly. Leave the points plate screws a bit loose.
Take out the plugs, and move the crank to one of the firing marks.
Use some needle nose pliers or roachclips to pull the points cam fully advanced. (That's counterclockwise)
You should be able to move the points plate until the points just begin to open at this point.
Move the crank to the other firing mark and do it again.
The points should just begin to open here too.
Other things to look at; cam bearing slop, advance index pin bent/missing, advance wobbling/not straight on rear intake cam, points cam 180 out, points cam worn out/broken, bad condenser, bad coil.
The ignition cannot be so far off that you have run out of slot to crank it. The only way this could happen is if you had the rear intake cam way out of time, then the bike would never run right.
You can confirm this by checking the timing by the static method.
It will prove whether the rear intake cam and advance are right or not.
BTW forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but you move the points plate clockwise to advance the timing.
Put the points in it, and set em correctly. Leave the points plate screws a bit loose.
Take out the plugs, and move the crank to one of the firing marks.
Use some needle nose pliers or roachclips to pull the points cam fully advanced. (That's counterclockwise)
You should be able to move the points plate until the points just begin to open at this point.
Move the crank to the other firing mark and do it again.
The points should just begin to open here too.
Other things to look at; cam bearing slop, advance index pin bent/missing, advance wobbling/not straight on rear intake cam, points cam 180 out, points cam worn out/broken, bad condenser, bad coil.
#7
07-31-2007, 02:02 PM
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RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
thankx ironxl....helpful reply with somewhere to start...been advancing clockwise...been fiddling with minor problems several years just ain't never cracked open a set of casings or tried diagnosing what might be wrong inside any....this is the darndest problem i have ever encountered, probably due to the lack of internals knowledge...i appreciate the help.......nbf.......
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#8
07-31-2007, 02:47 PM
Road Master
RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
I may be full of crap here but it sounds like the point cam has moved on the drive. There is a pin (if I remeber correctly) that the cam sits into. If you run the sucker full out with racing upgrades the pin might have twisted and the cam is sitting retarded on the drive. No pun intended. Shop manual will show this assembly.
#9
08-02-2007, 06:24 PM
#10
08-03-2007, 08:52 AM
RE: ironhead ignition problem, help needed
ORIGINAL: nathanbedfordforrest
my brother has a 73 sporty that has what everyone keeps trying to tell me is an impossible problem that started about 6 months ago..after being ridden hard, even on short trips to the water hole, we would have to advanve the timing a bit to get it to restart..either hot or cold....once advanced there is no retarding it either as it puts it way off time {won't crank, runs like a sick turtle, etc.}....we asked around but everyone only says its impossible....we changed advance weights,,...as the advance slot started nearing the end he bought {at someones advice} a 300 something dollar crane electronic setup and did away with the points..still the same thing happens, especially after high speed jaunts around a 100 or so...we have now reached the end of the advance slot and it needs advanced more as it will not even start at this point due to being out of time....the motor was built by a well known racer/builder in the business over 40 years and has seen near continuous short trip use for about 2 years without a problem before this....anyone know what to do about fixing this supposed impossible problem ???? nbf,,
my brother has a 73 sporty that has what everyone keeps trying to tell me is an impossible problem that started about 6 months ago..after being ridden hard, even on short trips to the water hole, we would have to advanve the timing a bit to get it to restart..either hot or cold....once advanced there is no retarding it either as it puts it way off time {won't crank, runs like a sick turtle, etc.}....we asked around but everyone only says its impossible....we changed advance weights,,...as the advance slot started nearing the end he bought {at someones advice} a 300 something dollar crane electronic setup and did away with the points..still the same thing happens, especially after high speed jaunts around a 100 or so...we have now reached the end of the advance slot and it needs advanced more as it will not even start at this point due to being out of time....the motor was built by a well known racer/builder in the business over 40 years and has seen near continuous short trip use for about 2 years without a problem before this....anyone know what to do about fixing this supposed impossible problem ???? nbf,,