Personally, I think the "lean" issue is a bit of a misnomer. In most cases, the HD motor is quite happy with the factory AFR settings in just about every part of the map. Some will certainly disagree with me on this but in almost every case, they can't logically explain why other then..."I heard someone else say that..."

And there's lots of data to suggest the modern Harley motor will run properly and efficiently at those AFR settings.

Cooling seems to be a common concern as it should be with any air-cooled motor. But note that fuel plays a relatively small part in heat. Timing can have a much larger affect on engine heat.

So, one would most likely have to add large amounts of fuel to get the same cooling affect as what might be had by proper adjustments in timing. Just something to consider when reading all those great anecdotes of seeing huge decreases in heat with small increases in fuel...generally doesn't happen.

Now please don't get me wrong...there are some circumstances that might warrant a change in AFR. And I would never discount an owner making such changes (as long as they are within reason) just because they want to. Hey, it's their bike so they should be able to do as they see fit.


Those mods would certainly warrant a recalculation in the VE's at the very least. And in many cases, simply resetting the VE's can have a dramatic affect on how the motor behaves.

If I may, I'd like to ask you to reconsider your definition of performance. It, in my book, doesn't always equate to WOT numbers on a dyno printout.

Performance can be something as basic as getting the motor to idle properly. Or respond to throttle inputs without annoying lags. And even better mileage and longevity.

I think once we begin to use the word performance in a much broader sense, we begin to take into account a lot more areas of the motor's mapping. Generally, that can be a good thing.


The reputable dyno operators will most likely agree with what I'm about to say...many not-so-reputable dyno operators count on the ignorance of many of their customers. Many customers don't understand how the numbers are obtained, under what conditions the dyno should be run, and how the graphs can be manipulated to "impress" the bike's owner with some high hp/tq numbers.

So, the dyno, when properly done, can be a valuable tool. But many good riders already know when their machine is or could perform better even without the dyno printout.

Hope all that helps!

 

i really do appreciate all the input from you guys (girls? if any). I ve tried to explain in unscientific words what i'm trying to do and you guys have done a good job of replying in kind. When these discussions start going cryptic (ie stoich) i start to shut down cuz i dont know what that means. so thanks

 

Hi,

The bikes arent lean at afr 14.7, this is not lean and tuners still dont produce afr readouts for stock bikes to substantiate a lot of claims made

Steve cole done some testing on the new water cooled Ultra and the AFR didnt go over 14.2, stock bike
Thanks
Mirrmu

 

For the most part, those of us that have taken the time to learn the EFI subject are only trying to share our knowledge and experience with those like yourself.

I won't argue that the topic can seem to be somewhat of a mystery and appear complex.

Speaking only for myself, I hate to see slick marketing take advantage of anyone...and many of the "tuning devices" on the market today certainly do that.

So, I can only offer the info...it's up to you to either use or disregard said info.

Good luck!

 

Pine tree has surely nailed the subject. I for one also do not think closed loop operation is too lean and run closed loop on my personal 120r equipped bike.

To the OP, here's the deal and it HAS been covered, but it bears repeating... you have a super sized generic tune presently in your bike. This is to cover all bikes in all situations. Our bikes, being what they are, are not all the same, far from it. Using cam tools, we have seen stock cams vary a degree or two and also lift varies. Head castings are a huge issue as the head suppliers are all over the map with what heads one ends up with and if there has been core shift, etc. It is NOT Ford or Toyota building these things for sure. "Consistency' is all over the map, so to speak.

A Dyno and/or a tune on your bike has really nothing to do with high HP 'numbers' on a sheet... it has everything to do with matching the various components on YOUR bike to maximize what is there and to make a bike perform better in everyday riding.

Let's take 'lugging' and engine. One should NOT at 100% stock ever ride their bike below like 2000 rpms, right? Get it down to 1800 in 6th and give it throttle... and it can spit, buck, or simply run like crap, until it gets over whatever rpm 'threshold' it runs better. On bikes that leave here? Lugging is just a term that encompasses way low rpm. On that 120r? I can be in 6th at 1500 rpm and whack the throttle and it simply goes! NO drama whatsoever. Same with most bikes.

A tune matches what air, fuel and timing requirements your bike needs to be smooth, to make that happen.

Even tho everybody thinks cars do great and never need a tune... (they do at some point), cars are NOT the same as our bikes. Cars come with a MAF sensor. That is a "Mass Airflow" sensor. A MAF actually 'weighs' how much air is entering the engine and adjusts accordingly. Without a MAF, our bikes depend upon a table inside the ECM to adjust... the VE table. One should adjust the VEs on a HArley for optimum smoothness. Your front head can have a chamber of 87cc and the rear head could be 89cc. Cam differences, etc add into these miniscule differences to make the stock tune... a 'get by' tune. Adjusting the VEs to the bike will eliminate these differences, and make the bike run like it should.

 

Your simplifying things too much. GOOD tuners are NOT about AFRs. A whole point of AFR may decrease exhaust temps by 50-100f. That is nothing. A GOOD tuner will adjust timing to make the engine run like it should and that is why, I... me... do not like piggy back tuners. Cannot adjust all aspects of timing like a flash tuner can do.

My 120r runs at 14.4, sniffed values, at cruise. I feel that is way way fine by me.

 

wurk turk, so you do tuning for the general public then? sounds like you know what you're doing.

 

Hi,

Thats right wurk truk, they not a space shuttle, its a motorbike which a lot of people cruise on and some people race around on

Thanks
Mirrmu

 

I'm not a vendor on this site. I come here for pleasure and help folks. I've been known to tune once and awhile.

 

been reading the truck and the wizard for a couple of years, and they tell it like it is, both give good info, and try to be helpful. 2 questions, does a indy have axcess to the newest version of the stage 1 download, and is there such a thing as a upgraded version