This is really not correct. You can configure max map corrections but pretty much all the Gen III maps have it turned off. Gen II systems did have the max offset set.

 

Automap will read your maps and offsets, set the new baseline with the offset adjustments, 0 out the offsets, and write the new baseline. If you want to do adjustments while automapping then run the automap, do your adjustments, then write the map to the module again. Personally, I'm a big fan of looking at the RPM tables with an eye on riding style (long distance rider, hot-rodder, city/highway, high speed freak) to adjust target AFRs for riding style before doing too may automaps. I found the canned base maps are intended mostly for HP but run pretty rich and get bad gas milage. Great for the hot-rodder but the rest suffer a bit and if you ride differently then the automap will take you down the wrong alley when you do start making your riding style adjustments and waste your tuning time.

 

True. And, I think part of the confusion may come from the fact there is a difference between "Auto tune" and what TMax calls "Auto Mapping". We've blurred the terms, when in fact, they are vastly different.


AutoTUNING is what the TMax does constantly while driving the bike. AutoMAP is when you manually go in and set all the learned parameters as a base for YOUR application. The AutoTUNING is controlled by the wide-band oxygen sensors. Think of AutoTuning this way: You're on your first day delivering eggs for a living. You come up to one of your many customers with five dozen eggs. They only need three, so you give them three and take two back to your truck. Next week, you again carry five dozen eggs to their door. They only need three. You give them three dozen eggs.

Now, next week, how many are you going to carry to their door? Likely, three, right? That's where TMax makes the real-time correction, and what you see as the green dots on the various maps. It's basically you remembering to only bring three, as that's typically what they need. That number can change, and the wide-band O2 sensors will let the ECU know if that is the case, but typically three dozen is what is needed, and that works okay until you get sick, or go on vacation. Then is when the AutoMAPping (Writing the learned fuel adjustments to your tune) comes into play. You'll find AutoMap under the Map Editing tab, shown below.



AutoMAPPING is like this. YOU know that this customer only needs three dozen eggs, and everything works great until you take a vacation. How will your replacement know how many eggs this particular customer will need? Well, YOU mark it down on a clipboard for them to read as they do the route. Your learned experience is solidly documented to match your particular route, at EVERY customer's doorstep. TMax does that at each RPM at all throttle settings from idle to WOT. AutoMAPPING simply writes it all down on an electronic clipboard.

As icebite has stated, you can AutoMAP, and each time, the tune will become more finely set to acheive the determined A/F ratio for YOUR application. Whether or not the current AutoTUNING has the capability to adjust wide enough to compensate depends on your application and starting tune. But, as icebite has said, each time the variance of adjustment should be getting smaller as the tune becomes more "in-tune" with your bike. You can also run the "Points Analyzer" under the TMax-Module-Control-Center tab to see how far out your tune is adjusting and if it has reached the end of its capabilities. But, that's another topic for another time I guess.

Also, I mentioned riding the bike the way YOU would typically ride because if you AutoMap every mile, but don't ever ride the bike the way you were going to ride it, then the TMax will never make changes until you finally do start riding it that way. Sure, it'll make the adjustments once you go there, but if someone rides around, never going over half-throttle, and AutoMaps constantly, thinking that the complete tune is now adjusted, they are woefully wrong. As stated, the TMax WILL adjust once they slam WOT, but if they put away their laptop and never AutoMapped after doing so, any changes made by TMax will not be retained as their "tune".

I hope this helps.

 

Alright. I tried it. Automap seemed pretty simple, but I made no manual changes. Just curious to see if she will start tomorrow....

Heh heh.

Michael

 

Couple of things here..
Automap really doesn't increase the quality of your tune. All it does is take the learned offsets and add them to the fixed map. There is some smoothing involved tho.. Most of it is in areas you don't ride. Riding the bike does tune completely and it not necessary to run automap. Again Gen II maps used to limit injector PW offsets from the map but the current Gen III maps don't have it enabled. You will find that there will always be some change to the maps. The tunes points analyzer is good in that it can tell you if the tune due to a number of things like selected AFR or ignition timing is close. If the timing is off, the injector PWs will wander off and the analyzer will point it out... I use the automap function after observing learned map offsets from timing/build/afr changes to clear the offsets then go back to tweaking timing and afr.

 

How's the bike treatin' you Michael?

Also, here's one for some of the natives. Been tweaking the tune on my 2006 Road King. I've adjusted the A/F to where I think it's pretty good. I leaned it a little at cruise and low-rpm acceleration. It helped, but I still see only 35 mpg regularly. I started with base map #642 (88ci with true duals and air filter.) Bike has both wide-band 02s installed and it is adjusting fuel to the desired ratio. I'm thinking that timing is my issue. The ThunderMax tune has a huge dip under acceleration and I've started putting in some timing in that area to help fuel mileage.

The change has had a huge difference on how the bike runs. Throttle response is now razor sharp and around 2,000-3,5000 rpm the bike cruises much better in high gear. So, I know full well about the down sides of too much timing, but I can't hear any detonation or pre-ignition, but then again, my ears ain't what they used to be!

I'm happy with the timing where it is performance-wise, and I'll likely fuel up again tomorrow to get a better idea of the fuel mileage. I just went on a 100-mile trip tonight but didn't fuel up yet. But, I'm thinking that the way the bike woke up, and the mileage I was seeing shows that the bike wanted a few more degrees of timing in the area that I use most. I've looked around the 'net for a better idea of some timing curves, but they are all over the map. Plus, new timing curves seem to be more subdued than earlier ones for even the Twin-Cams. So, I figured I'd toss my ThunderMax's timing chart out there and see what you all think.

Am I crazy for bumping the timing, or worrying too much about it given the results? I really try to listen for any pinging, but honestly, these Harleys are MUCH more noisier than what I was used to riding! Between the valvetrain, primary, transmission noises, I'm not sure WHAT I'm hearing. All the noises seem pretty rythmic with the engine, not like an uncontrolled detonation, if that makes sense. And, they are at higher revs, but even at low load, so I'm thinking this must be the valvetrain noise everyone talks about with their twin-cam?

Anyways, feel free to take a peek at the chart and see if anything stands out in glaring error. I have not adjusted any timing by throttle position yet, since I don't notice any pinging in any particular area. The plateau to the left is where my idle resides between those two points. The yellow dots were the factory timing points, the blue is where I've bumped it to. Max is 35 degrees at 3,900 RPM.

Thoughts?

 

With that timing map, I'd be looking for silver/grey ***** on the electrodes. You are probably detonating at WOT. If you want throttle response you need to work the partial throttle maps and not the WOT maps.

 

Agreed. I have pulled the plugs and did not see any signs of detonation. Will likely do it again to keep an eye on things.

It was my understanding that one is to adjust this map for an overall timing curve, then adjust the partial throttle map(s) to remove any pinging/detonation at specific RPM/Throttle settings. This main map adjusts ALL areas to whatever amount you set and I can see in the other maps how it has raised the timing in all areas. Everything in the other maps is identical to the original (yellow) "factory" settings in the base tune, simply increased by whatever amount was indicated in this map. (Of course, you already understood that Max. Just stating for anyone who may read this later on.)

I rarely go into WOT, but since this map controls all timing points at a particular RPM, it makes sense to start here and then adjust the partial throttle maps as necessary, right? Been working with Holley EFI for a few years now and trying to safely adapt what I've learned there to the TMax. Wish I had the knock sensing (called ionizers on HD?) inputs as I do on the other system, but as we all know, that wasn't a thing on Harleys in 2006. Using throttle settings instead of barometrics has been a bit of a learning curve. But this one isn't boosted, so that makes it easier.

Trying to learn and looking for better fuel mileage. The throttle response and extra kick in the pants are greatly appreciated, but not necessarily the primary goal. I rarely visit WOT and shut down WAY before the rev limit, but it is good to know things are correct there, should you ever need it.

Thanks for your input, and will keep an eye on the plugs and ears open for any pinging. The main reason for posting the image of the map was to see if there were any glaring areas of concern. The most change was in the lower RPM where I ride most of the time and cylinder pressures are much lower there. I'm just trying to figure out when everyone is throwing timing all-in so early, why there was such a dip in timing on this tune. And, it seems everyone has a go-to curve they prefer. I've read it even depends on how old your tuner/tune is. Just trying to improve the overall ride (and fuel mileage) of my ol' Road King.

Safe to assume I am not too far out of the realm of possibility?

 

My primary concern is much WOT timing. You say you don't spend much time up there but,, to get it right you really need to heat the motor and run it hard in that area. If you are not doing this, you will eventually find too much timing when WOT is needed. Don't think I've ever seen a map where the timing is above about 32 deg. Your WOT curves even down low are really aggressive.

Using pinging an indicator of best power at WOT can be deceptive. Ion sensing is not the best IMO. Typically I find better TQ numbers at 2-4 degrees below hearable detonation. The main reasons for the ion sense is to control detonation at cruise on a smogged motor. Get it as lean as you can and use as much timing as you can while not burning up the motor.

Unfortunately you won't get the best mileage out of Tmaxs. Especially on a close to stock motor. The problem stems from Tmax not using MAP to control ignition timing. You'll typically find that you lose 2-4 MPG even possibly more on a lower compression motor.

BTW, If you are running the stock head pipe and free flowing mufflers, you'll want to restrict the flow on the left muffler even block it off. At low speed that side can pull in air and richen the rear cylinder.

 

THANK YOU for your input, Max. Greatly appreciated.

"Get it as lean as you can and use as much timing as you can while not burning up the motor."

We are of the same mindset, and I am trying to get up to speed with those who have much more experience than I. Trying to do it in small, safe, steps.

It is my understanding that 2006 Road Kings didn't use O2 sensors, and would assume that the factory exhaust wouldn't have that provision at all. Thankfully, when I bought the bike, it had a V&H true duals system on it already. That gave me existing 18mm O2 bungs in the head pipes, which helped me decide to go with the TMax since wide-band is now a viable option.

Looking at the exhaust outlets, it appears that the right (front cylinder) exhaust is more blackened than the left. One of my rituals is to clean the inside of the exhaust and keep an eye on the buildup as an indicator of how rich the engine goes during operation. If I don't "get on it" and it goes black, I know that part throttle is rich - somewhere. If it only does it at WOT, then I know where she's drinking heavily.

Thanks for your input, Max. Will continue listening and learning, and let you know what I find.