Ok, I have a few questions. I would like to know if anyone here has the answers to these questions. I know on the Harley 2007 Ultra Classic the stockO2 sensor is a two wire sensor! Does anyone know is the Terry Components Terminal Velocity II sensor a two wire sensor? Next, the ThunderMax with AutoTunetalks about a wide array O2 sensor. Is this also a two wire sensor? What other than price sets these two apart? I hear that they are both plug and play units now. Has anyone out there has any experience with either one of these? If so, could you reply back with some input.I would like to hear your thoughtsand your experiences. I am interested in purchasing one these units. I just don’t want to spend the extra $350 on the ThunderMax if they are basically the same!!!

Geezer Glide Bob

 

Until someone elsechimes in with direct knowledge on the systems your asking about,here issome generic onfo thatI've picked upabout O2 sensors and their wires.

I have seen from one to six wires on O2 sensors, the more wires the better, more accurate the sensor as long as it,s compatible with the device monitoring it.

Narrow band, or sometimes called switching O2s,can come with one to four wires depending on if they have a warmup heater built in and how many different ground signals they run, such as chassis and computer grounds. The better NBO2s have an internal warmup heater. NBO2s have a signal range of 0-1V,can only indicate if you are at 14.6:1 A/F at .45 volts, more rich or more lean then that, not how rich or lean it is. Biasing an NBO2 at a different voltages otherthen .45 voltscan lead to erratic A/Fsfrom sensor to sensoror asa sensor ages, they can accurately indicate a 14.6 A/F only. On the '07' two wire, obviously one wire is the signal, the other wire is either a ground wire to the PCM or it could be the +12V for the heater and the sensor toexhuast for ground, hopefully someone else can clarify that for us.

Wide band O2s can have from four to six wires, again the more the better the O2. They all have a warmup heater and sometimes more then one signal output. The wide bandNTK brand O2 that we use on our dyno has six wires, these WBO2s cost us approx $900 each and are very accurate. Obviously, there not used on bike applications.WBO2 sensors can measure from approx a 10-20 A/F ratio and are used on the auto-tune systems such asthe Thundermax.

So far all O2s brands and styles that I've come acrosscome with a 18X1.5 mm thread. Common brands are Bosch, NGK and NTK.

 

GGBob-

I can't speak directly to the Terminal Velocity II system as I excluded it early on in my investigation of ECM alternatives.
The O2 sensors used by the ThunderMax are 5 or 6 wire "wideband" sensors.
I didn't open the connector to count them since it wasn't important to me.
As for first hand experience, I have around 10K miles on my ThunderMax w/AutoTune and I am a completely satisfied user.

There are is a multitude of posts on the forum addressing the subject that you are asking about.
Just search on "Thunder-Max", "Terry Components", and "Daytona Twin Tec" for more than you ever wanted to know.

I can guarantee that the ThunderMax is "plug-and-play" since I have one. No wire cutting or splicing was required.
This was not the case with with the Terminal Velocity II system as of 10 months ago, but things could have changed since then.

I just pulled the following 3 steps from the system installation information on the Terry Components website:
If their system is now "plug-and-play" they should probably update their website.

STEP 5
LOCATE PIN NUMBER AND NOTE WIRE COLOR AT ECU HARNESS
A) 10 - GROUND (SHOULD BE BLACK)
B) 13 - IGNITION (SHOULD BE WHITE/BLACK TRACER)
C) 30 - CRANK-SENSOR (SHOULD BE RED)
D) 23 - REAR 02-SENSOR (PK/GRN) PINK/GREEN **NOTE** FOR 2006 DYNA WITH 02-SENSOR

STEP 6
1) ONCE THE PINS AND ASSOCIATED WIRE COLORS ARE LOCATED, SPLICE IN AND SOLDER THE WIRE ON PIN 10 WITH OUR BLACK WIRE (GROUND)
2) SPLICE IN AND SOLDER THE WIRE ON PIN 13 TO OUR RED WIRE (IGNITION)
3) SPLICE IN AND SOLDER THE WIRE ON PIN 30 TO OUR WHITE WIRE (CRANK-SENSOR)
4) SPLICE IN AND SOLDER THE WIRE ON PIN 23 TO OUR BROWN WIRE (O2-SENSOR)
5) ONCE THE CONNECTIONS ARE MADE AT THE ECU CONNECTOR, CLOSE THE GRAY CONNECTOR AND TIE-WRAP AND TAPE THE HARNESS. THEN PLUG THE CONNECTOR BACK INTO THE ECU.

STEP 7
TPS CONNECTIONS
1) INSTALL THE REMAINING 3 WIRES INTO THE SUPPLIED SHIELDED LOOM. (BLUE, GREEN, BLUE/WHITE)
2) INSTALL THE WIRES AND LOOM UNDER THE GAS TANK TOWARDS TO THE THROTTLE-BODY TPS CONNECTOR
3) SOLDER THE (BLUE/WHITE) WIRE FROM THE TERMINAL VELOCITY IITM "Alpha N" TOWARD THE (GRAY/PURPLE) WIRE AT THE TPS SENSOR CONNECTOR, A FEW INCHES AWAY FROM THE CONNECTOR.
4) LOCATE THE (RED/WHITE) WIRE AT THE TPS SENSOR CONNECTOR, AND CUT THE WIRE 2-3 INCHES AWAY FROM THE CONNECTOR.
5) SOLDER THE (GREEN) WIRE FROM THE TERMINAL VELOCITY II TM "Alpha N" TOWARD THE (RED/WHITE) WIRE TO THE SENSOR.
6) SOLDER THE (BLUE) WIRE FROM THE TERMINAL VELOCITY II "ALPHA N" TO THE (RED/WHITE) WIRE BACK TO THE ECU.


06FXDBI-

 

You mention an 07 Ultra, is this your bike?

If your buying a Terminal Velocity II for it, you don't need their sensors. Their TVII unit is made to work with your stock sensors. I would double check about it being plug and play. Last I heard the TVII was splice and solder into your wiring harness.

 

I am starting to lean more towards the "ThunderMax" at this time. I understand that the more wires an O2 sensor has the better it will be able to read the exhaust. I do have an 07 and like it, but this summer the heat aspect might just roast my a$$ off the bike. I know there are cheaper routes, but you pay for what you get (not is Harley's case though huh?) Sounds like the ThunderMax we adapt to more. Does the ThunderMax also plug into the "Crank Sensor" and the "Throttle Sensor"? Maybe this is my route. Will cost a little more upfront, but don't want to do this three times until I find the right one.

 

Hi Bob,

If I had to choose between the Thundermax or the TVII, I'd choose the Thundermax. I tried the TVII for several months and it didn't live up to its advertising.

I just recently got the PCIII and already am part of a group of owners who are experiencing minor problems. The Bike runs the best it ever has, but like I said has some minor issues that Dynojet is aware of.

If I could go back to day one and make my selection again knowing what I know now, I would buy the SERT. After all the time and money I have spent, I would have saved money buying the sert at first.

Its Pro's: It's HD, and therefore won't screw with your warranty. If your bike isn't running right, the dealer has to make it right. He can't blame it on an after market part. The after market company can't blame it on some HD component. The SERT uses the stock ECU, so no additional bulky parts have to be stuffed under the seat. It is without a doubt the most tuneable piece of equipment for our bikes which allows us to adjust or modify any aspect of the fuel or ignition.

There's a lot of good reviews on Thundermax, but if you look hard enough you'll find negative reviews also. Will Thundermax warranty your motor if it blows up? If you take the Bike in to the dealer because it isn't running right, how hard do you really think he is going to look, before throwing up his hands and blaming it on the Thundermax.

Just some things to think about. They do give you 30 days to try it. So from that aspect you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Good Luck...

 

Since the TMax is a "100% plug compatible" replacement for the OEM ECM, then yes the two sensors mentioned
above plug into the TMax using the existing OEM wiring harness that the OEM ECM used.



As to any effect that using TMax would have on your HD Factory Warrantee...? Who the heck really knows?
The terms of the Factory Warrantee can be, and are, interpreted quite differently from dealer to dealer.

A few observations gleaned from this forum and others like it that led to my personal position on the Warrantee question:
(1) Every HD dealership seems to enjoy complete and autonomous freedom from any MOCO oversight as to how they
are allowed to interpret the terms of the "Factory Warrantee" and therefore do so pretty much in any manner that suits them.
(2) There are hundreds of posts on this forum describing various MOCO dealer's inability or outright refusal
to make Warrantee repairs to bikes that utilize 100% genuine MOCO parts and accessories, the SERT included.
(3) It is common practice by a FEW dealerships to blame any and all Warrantee problems on non-HD aftermarket A/Cs and pipes.
(4) There is a United States federal law, The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, that in it's simplest terms states that HD,
as the manufacturer, cannot void your Factory Warrantee just because you installed a non-HD part. Theoretically at least,
HD has to prove that the non-HD part was responsible for any failure before they can refuse Warrantee coverage of the failed part(s).

My personal "course-of-action" based on observations 1, 2, 3, and 4 above was:
I informed my local dealer of my intention to use the TMax to solve the "lean mixture" ridability problems that my
'06 Street Bob had since delivery, and asked for the dealership's position regarding the Factory Warrantee.

I was told to bring it back in for the "head wrench" to look at after it was installed.
After a 15 minute check ride, the "head wrench" told the GM that it was OK by him.

Next, the GM informed me, in writing, that in the dealership management's opinion, the TMax ECM did not represent
a reliability issue that would materially affect my ability to exercise the Factory Warrantee at that dealership.

The GM did quiz me on my knowledge of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
He made certain that I was aware that it could come into play, depending on what part failed
and what the determined cause of the failure was, during the Factory Warrantee period.

So far, so good. My selling dealership was OK with it, but ONLY my selling dealership.
I knew full well that if something broke more than 300 miles away, outside of my towing range,
I was on my own and to let the games begin.

Even if the dealer had said that TMax would immediately and irrevocably void my Factory Warrantee, I would have still
installed the TMax before subjecting myself to 2 years of riding a brand new bike that ran like total CRAP!

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act does not apply to any "Extended Warranties", so rather than fight the
"no, its not covered" BS for 5 additional years, I also canceled my "extended warrantee" to the tune of $1500 back in my pocket.

This all comes down to one's own opinion and personal choice, hopefully based on some kind of factual
information and not solely on any dealer's scare tactics.

If your new bike is running fine.. then you probably aren't reading this thread anyway.

If not, and your new bike runs like CRAP and the dealer says there's nothing wrong with it...

[b]Then as I see it, you have a couple of obvious choic

 

Here is what I have heard from every dealership I have visited, when I ask them about what happens to my warranty if I installdifferent pipes and AC.

"If we put it on we will warranty it." When asked what "we" means, it has been explained to me that if you have a problem the dealership that installed it will warranty it not just any and all dealerships.

My experience withAmerican Manufacturers is that they will all try and not allow an issue as a warranty claim. I am not bashing American manufacturers, but it justseems to be their mentality. Also, I am talkingthe Auto Industry.

 

I could be wrong here, but I don't the the Terry Components TVII will work with a 2007. It only has one O2 sensor while your bike has 2. The Thundermax with autotune has 2 O2 sensors. The Daytona TwinTec TCFI also has 2 O2 sensors. I don't know if the Terry Components TVII has a wide band sensor or not but the other two I mentioned do. From what I understand they are able to read a wider range of air/fuel ratios (AFR).

 

Terminal Velocity II uses the factory sensors.
Product Number: FM220Q[/align][color=#0000ff][font=tahoma]
Terry Components Terminal Velocity II™
For Harley-Davidson® Softails, Road Kings, Baggers, Dynas, Sportsters, and V-Rod motorcycles.

READ ALL THE DIRECTIONS CAREFULLY BEFORE STARTING THIS INSTALLATION.
DO NOT APPLY FORCE WHEN INSTALLING THE SENSOR CONNECTORS TO THE SENSORS.THIS WILL RESULT IN BENDING THE ALINEMENT OF THE TERMINAL PINS LOCATED IN THE CONNECTORS AND SENSORS.

Step 1-Locate the battery and disconnect the negative battery cable:
Mount the Terminal Velocity II™ unit in the open area in front of the battery with 2-tie straps, directing the harness from the unit towards the 6 o’clock position.

Step 2-THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR connector installation:
Remove the air cleaner assembly and unplug the TPS sensor connector at the TPS sensor. Route the Terminal Velocity II™ harness which includes (2) TPS connectors under the gas tank into the harness loom to the TPS sensor. The TPS sensor is located on the left side of the throttle body. Plug the (2) TPS connectors from the Terminal Velocity II™ in between the TPS sensor and to the factory TPS connector.

Step 3-CRANK POSITION SENSOR connector installation:
Unplug the Crank Position Sensor connector at the sensor which is located at the lower front crank case area. Route the Terminal Velocity II™ harness which includes (2) CPS connectors underneath the bottom of the motorcycles frame along with the main harness loom. Plug the (2) CPS connectors from the Terminal Velocity II™ in between the CPS sensor and to the factory CPS connector.
Systems that are equipped with Factory O2 sensors.

Step 4-O2 SENSOR connector installation:
Unplug the Rear O2 sensor connector from the factory harness which is located at the Rear exhaust pipe. Route the Terminal Velocity II™ harness which includes (2) O2 sensor connectors and connect one connector to the Rear O2 sensor and connect the other connector to the main factory O2 sensor connector.
Unplug the Front O2 sensor connector from the factory harness which is located at the Front exhaust pipe. Route the Terminal Velocity II™ harness which includes (2) O2 sensor connectors, and connect one connector to the Front O2 sensor and connect the other connector to the main factory O2 sensor connector.

Systems that are not equipped with Factory O2 sensors.
A variety of factory and aftermarket exhaust systems are now coming equipped with O2 sensor bungs which are plugged, but these plugs can be removed to accept an O2 sensor. These bungs have a thread size of 18 mm x 1.5 mm.

Exhaust systems that are not equipped with O2 sensor bungs, would need to have a bung with a 18 mm x 1.5 mm thread size welded to the exhaust pipe in order to install an O2 sensor.
[size=3][color=#000000]TheTerminal Velocity II™ system prefers to receive information from the O