Hi Guys
I have a 2004 FXSTBI Night Train. It has a Kuryakin Pro-R Hypercharger and SE 2 Exhaust, apart from that it is stock. I also own TTS Mastertune, which I think is awsome and full of so much potential. However my ride doesn't have O2 sensors so I cannot use the V-Tune to customise the maps for the bike. Now I could probably swap out the ECM for a later model that will accept the Harley O2 sensors (say a 2006 Dyna, I think should work, but not sure if it will just plug straght in yet) but I figure (since I don't have a problem spending money on my baby) that if I could go one step firther and use wide band sensors I could get the tune even closer to being what it should be. However it appears the Harley ECM is not capable of processing the information from wide band sensors. But (the plot thickens) there does appear to be several aftermarket devices that will do the job that you can add on (I guess similar to how a PCIII works but a lot more limited in it's appication). So has anyone out there played with this sort of thing? I do want to retain the use and final tune for the bike with Mastertune.
Any information anyone out there has that could help shed some lite on the subject would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Tony

 

Tony... you are running your bike in open loop. Open loop is fine and there is no real need to upgrade to 02 sensors. Grab your TTS and either find a tuner in your area (if there is one) and set your VE tables... that's what the 02 sensors are for with the adaptive learning in the 2005 and up ECM's anyway. There are gas readers on the market that will work with your TTS such as the Daytona Twin Scan II /Wego III that uses wide band sensors in the tail of your exhaust. This way there is no need to do all the upgrading from stock parts and weld sensor bungs in place.

There are those who snap at the TSII but it will give very close results if you keep at it. It takes time and patience.

 

Thanks for that Wizard and I understand (I think) what you are saying but I don't think this is what I am trying to achieve. The idea of the V-Tune and running in closed loop (I believe) is so that you can easily tune the bike to its particular setup. Varying the riding conditions so that you get a broad "look" at what the bike does under various conditions. I should have pointed out I live in Thailand and DO NOT WANT A THAI "MECHANIC" TAMPERING WITH MY BIKE!! If you get my drift. This was part of the reason I purchased the Mastertune in the first place. I am an electrician and I am pretty sure I could convert the bike and install standard Harley ECM and O2 sensors but if I am going to "play" would like to go 1 step further and maybe do something no one else has done or very few. To be able to sense over a bigger range should give better results over a wider spectrum of running characteristics theoretically. It can be done by adding another "black box" but then you have to buy more software and tune that which sort of defeats the point. There must be a way of getting the standard ECM to"see" the results from the wide band sensors and be able to use V-tune to alter it accordingly surely. Downloading ready made maps are good and the one I have in there now is not too bad it certainly made an improvement but the bike gets to 171Kmh (going by my GPS the speedo was reading 110 Mph) quickly but struggles over that. Any ready made map was done on someone else's bike and will never be the same as yours even if it is close. The closest Dyno to where I live is in Malaysia so.....
That's where I am at and this is also a learning curve. Maybe this is not possible but then again.....
Being able to make changes easily down the track as other mods are performed would also be nice.
Sorry for the long winded post,
Tony

 

There is NOT any true way to adapt wide bands unto your bike. PERIOD. No black boxes you can add, nothing. As an electrician, you should be able to get the point that standard O2s on a HArley are digital... on-off-on-on-off.... And wide bands are analog 0 to like 900 mv. The ECM has been programmed to read only digital signals. You cannot add a power vision, you cannot add anything to the stock ECM you have to have it do otherwise.

The closest you can come, since you already own a TTS to tune it with is swap for an 05 or newer ECM and make the bike closed loop. (which should work for a SERT, SEPST, and Power vision, too). But... you ALREADY own the TTS.

That being said, if you are willing to remove the ECM you presently have... then there are two options. The newer Delphi as outlined in the TTS manual or a TMax system, and those DO use wide bands.

But.... from the sounds of things, you wish to have 'fuel control' that adjusts for various fuels and conditions, right? As you ride and encounter those conditions, right? In real time right? The TMax does NOT do that. What it does is 'learn' from your riding and then you would install e new map that follows those previous conditions.

The ONLY true fuel control for your bike is swapping an 05 up ECM and follow the directions in TTS. You may not like that option, and I am truly sorry if that is the case, but facts are facts.

BTW... WHAT similar systems? I think you may be mis-reading things a bit. AND... not understanding the differences between instant fuel control and re-mapping a bike. Harleys now run CLOSED LOOP... that IS fuel control. Jut because a vehicle has O2s... doesn't mean it runs in closed loop. And another option to consider is what Wiz says... The Twin Scan II kit with WEGO.

There, you install the wide bands and following the directions, you can get quite a good map for the bike. But TS does NOT install on the bike, you remove it when done, and... you need a tuner like the TTS you ALREADY have... to enter the data into the ECM. Since you already have a Delphi, ECM, and a TTS, I think getting a TS2KIT is the best outcome for you to 'play with". Like $500US. Buy it from Dr. VTwin in Cali for a good deal and good service.

Using a TS2 is what a LOT of dyno operators here in the US still use. Even I, last month, tuned a bike on a Dyno using one of these. NO laptop to carry around and having all of the rest of the TTS functionality just makes this combo a perfect fit for a pre-07 bike. No Kidding!!! TS can gather data from 'street riding' as well as using a Dyno.

I have BOTH a TS2 and a TTS, BTW... works great once you have an understanding of things... except without the corresponding 05 up ECM... STILL no fuel control.

If I was reading you worng and you DO simply want a better map for your bike... the TS2 KIT is ABSOLUTELY the way to go. NOTHING compares... and even with your 04 ECM, using TS2, as opposed to a TMAX... youi get to KEEP the bikes ability to read MAP output and have bike adjust according to the load placed upon it.

 

WOW thanks for that Wurk_Truk, this is exactly what I was looking for.
I have no problem changing out the ECM and I thought that was the case. I did think the Harley ECM’s only used narrow band O2 sensors however and looking at the TTS manual the diagram shows 2 wire sensors and I thought wide band sensors were 3 or 5 wires.
Doing this will give me the ability to run in closed loop and have “on the fly” fuel control, correct?
So the next question(s) are which ECM to use (from which bike) and will it just plug in (with the additional connections added for the O2 sensors) or will I have to change the wiring connections and the plug?
Is it best to use Harley O2 sensors or go to aftermarket ones, if so what would you recommend?
Also will purchasing the TS2 kit still be an advantage after swapping out the ECM and installing the sensors. If I am reading what you say correctly I can still use it to obtain AFR readings etc and then use TTS to download them into the ECM, is this correct? Doesn’t the V-Tune option on TTS do the same thing?
Thanks a lot for your advice and input I REALLY appreciate it.
Tony

 

Tony... I think you may be a little confused about tuning. Let me see if I can lend a hand here.

Adjust your thinking about AFR's. AFR's are, along with every other table in the calibration, secondary to having a complete tune. Think VE's (Volumetric Efficiency) first. This is what truly makes the difference in the first step of the tune and is what the 02 sensors assist when doing the VTune. (Volumetric Efficiency Tune) when using the TTS module.

The VE table will tell the ECM how much air flow is going into your motor (pump). This VE calculation will tell the ECM how much fuel to mix with the air for a complete burn at the AFR table cell you prescribe in kPa, throttle position or RPM that corresponds with the proper VE table cell.

Once your VE table is set properly then all the other tables can easily be change to enhance your tune but the VE calibration MUST come first. This is what dyno operators do for the most part is set your VE Tables then adjust everything else. The adjustment of the VE tables are the only thing you need the newer ECM or 02 sensors for period if you want to use the TTS VTune feature. It is just one feature of the TTS.

So...with the 04 and earlier ECM you can simply use an external device that will read the free oxygen and correspond those numbers to your VE tables held within your ECM. This is how it has been done for years before the 05 and up ECM with factory installed 02 sensors whether it be wide or narrow band. Some dyno operators still use an outside source of reading free oxygen to this day. This is what the TSII does.

Also... You will spend about the same amount of cash for the update conversion for your bike to install the new ECM and have to modify your wiring harness to install the sensors then hack up your pipes to weld bungs as you would if you simply purchased the TSII.

If something happened to your bike or you purchased another bike you can still use the TSII. You can use the TSII on any bike because it doesn't marry to your ECM like the TTS will. The TSII does only one thing... it reads free oxygen and converts it to a table that you can copy/paste into your TTS calibration VE tables. When using the TSII on a pre 02 sensor bike you will need to make a sniffer tube to run up the exhaust pipe that will hold the wide band sensor. It's all in the TSII manual.

There is nothing wrong with running open loop and there is little advantage to converting to closed loop with a pre 05 bike.

 

Know what? I've been thinking about this some and want to go BACK to the OPs original question... maybe not HIS bike, because it has NO O2 sensors and cannot run in closed loop, but later bikes that CAN run in closed loop.

Companies like Innovate make wideband testing equipment, etc. One of the keys here is that Innovate, and others, allow one to configure the WEGO controller to have an out put! That output could easily be 450mv equals 13.9 on the wide band. A two band Innovate could be mounted to a bike, install the widebands, configure the two outputs to 450 mv and set the AFR to whatever you want. The ECM will simply 'see' the 450 and throttle that position for fuel delivery.

I almost bought a dual channel from Innovate this spring after reading the AFR shootout in Modular Ford for this very reason. I THINK it would be a way cool experiment.. Off and on, I have been looking into this and O2s in general. Right now, the LSU 4.2 is outdated as Bosch now makes a LSU4.9. I wonder when Chris from TS will upgrade. Another thing that Steve turned me onto is that those sensors are NOT made to free air calibrate. Each LSU sensor comes equipped with a resistor that is trimmed at Bosch for EXACTLY 14.7. Cutting that off and using free air calibration can skew results a bit, IMHO. I would like to see Chris incorporate the 4.9 and keep the resistors intact.

 

Gee Guys, first thanks for the input I didn't think I was too much of an idiot and I deal with VERY technical issues on a day by day basis at work but I am starting to feel like a dummy here!!!

I have just read 2 articles on the web one here

http://www.harley-davidson-forum.net...ead.php?t=7451

and the other here

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/h...o2_upgrade.htm

Now PLEASE correct me if I am wrong (and I probably am) but this makes it sound like if I swap out my ECU (to a 2007 model don't know what this will involve yet) and install the LC1 upgrade from Nightrider i should have the advantages of the wide band sensors and still be able to tune the ECM with my TTS.
Yeah I know I am greedy but I would like the tuning (heat problems etc.) advantages of the wide bands and still keep the adaptive tuning provided by the closed loop. The ability to set the ECM up by riding (as a dyno is not available where I am) using V-Tune.
I have no emission concerns where I live but the gas in most service stations is suss to say the least.
Am I reading/interpreting this correctly or am I just getting more confused here?
Thanks for your help and patience here but I need to grasp this properly before I spend the money and to be able to deal with it when I do.
On a by note is swapping the ECM out a straight plug and add a few connections deal or will the plug and connections have to be fully revamped ...if anyone knows / has done it.
Once again guys thanks
Tony

 

I haven't done it myself, so I cannot comment upon how hard the swap with the new wiring would be. Enough folks have done it for me to say that you could too. Parts may be an issue for you... In Phucket... but I feel if you take your time and gather ALL the parts you need before diving in.... should be OK on that.

I don't think the LC1 is the one you want. Let me go look.

Couple of months ago, I was thinking of obtaining a LM2 duo, use that to tune the bike with, and THEN leave the bike in open loop. Decided against that, because I see absolutelty NO gain over the Twin Scan +kit with WEGO 3d.

Now in your case... if you are willing to spend a bit, I would try buying TWO(2) LC1s. One for front and one for back cylinder. Those look like the output can be made to mimic the input for the new ECM you will get. I still think one can do this... set the pair of LC1s to like 13.9, call THAT stoich, wire into the ECM and The ECM should throttle the fuel delivery around THAT.

Plus... there WILL be a failsafe for you if our idea doesn't work. When you buy all of the conversion pieces, also buy a set of stock Harley narrow band O2 sensors too. And in that manner... if this doesn't work, you can easily fall back to the standard NB O2s and tune the bike. I am sensing you a PM and would like you to read it.

Remember that this set up would NOT be a true wide band set up. Instead what I am striving for is a way to change the factory 14.7 AFR to another value like the aforementioned 13.9. From that point onwards, the whole bike would simply think it was running 14.7 instead of the 13.9 it really is. (I think 14.2 would be a good AFR to shoot after... that is the AFR of gasohol.).

I still have to find out some stuff on how offsets actually work, etc... but really do think its doable.

 

OK fellas. Looks like Thai Tony and myself are going to try and give this a whirl.

So far.... I think the plan of attack would be this: Tune the bike using TTS, using stock MOCO NB sensors and have NO offset involved. For MY bike, I would v-tune at 1 Lambda. For Tony's bike tune with NO CLB off set. I cannot figure out HOW to make the BroadBand sensors work if we tune with them in place and have them 'offsetted' already. It would screw up the VEs.

For you guys on here. If you V-Tune your bike with NO offset, you CAN change around your offsets later and NOT have to re v-tune the bike. If you DO v-tune with an offset... say 700mv, what happens is the rest of the map that is in open loop has had 'math' applied to make those VEs correct. You can NOT change the offset, then, because it would mess with that math used to keep open loop VEs correct. But, on a TRUE dyno tune (as opposed to v-tune on a dyno), one can change those offsets at will. Same with a v-tuned bike tuned at 14.7... you can change those at will too, because there was NO 'math' applied to alter the open loop portions of the tune.

Once we gained dead on VEs... THEN we could crank up the BBs to say... 14.0 for the closed loop portion of the tune. This all sounds good, but MY worry is that my AFVs would go crazy. If we can make the AFVs stay stabilized, this really should work.

So... Thai Tony will need to buy a new ECM, assorted pieces that the TTS manual points out. Two LC1s, and I will try to talk him into the TS+kit, too. I want the plus kit, so that we can sniff and check AFRs along the way and be sure that what we THINK is the reality really IS the reality, too. I already have a TS+kit myself. The TS+Kit will tell what the AFR out of the pipe is, AND it also tells what the ECM is trying to COMMAND as the AFR. Sometimes those can be vastly different.

If Thai Tony hooked up his TTS, he will need to send the dongle to TTS and have them convert it to a two bike config, because we will be buying a new ECM. I will also have Tony buy the stock MOCO NB O2 sensors to v-tune with (and have as a fall back if this BB crap doesn't work).

Tony e-mailed me and stated in Thailand... the closest Dyno is thousands of miles away in Malaysia...

I'm hoping that Rufus and Steve Cole can help me along the way....

There is ONE flaw to our theory that I am checking into and can make or break this deal. I was told that BB sensors have a 'lag' time of up to .3sec. NB sensors have NO lag time. There would be NO WAY for us DIYers to alter the internal programming of the ECM to account for this, and the AFVs WOULD go crazy. NOT good. I will keep you guys informed.

Us DIYers are a CRAZY bunch for sure!!!