is a bit like an iPhone, can do a lot and comes with no manual. It assumes we know what we are doing with a good grasp of the ECM, sensors and how engine management operates. Your questions are not about the PV but the information about the engine management it provided.

what year and model is your bike? Is it a later bike that works with the Target Tune model or earlier with Autotune module. Are you working with the modules or using the PV to Autotune with stock O2’s ? Your questions are regarding ignition not AFR but would be good to know you have the fuelling right before moving on to ignition.

are you reading logs on a computer? Are you using WinPV? Can you see if the anti knock is dealing with the knocks? They may not be an issue if so. I would let the Autotune do the job in ignition mode and not adjust manually. Working out load vs rev for each cell requirement not as efficient as letting the PV do it.

tell us more, we all on the learning journey

 

You are correct, and your iphone analogy is perfect. I would like a manual the explained not just ECM, but ECMs on Harley-Davidsons. Is there one out there? Now, having said that, I do think Dynajet's instructions/manual or lack thereof is still just short of awful. Simple things like I mentioned, having fields labeled, low, medium, and high without any reference to what numeric values that equates too is **** poor documentation. They should thank their stars that FuelMoto exists and do what they do in terms of customer support for dynajet's product.

Anyway, I have a 2018 Fat Bob 107 M8, FuelMoto Air Cleaner and SE slip-ons. I am using WinPV and spreadsheets. I find that I can dig quicker and more accurately in spreadsheets. I've seen Megalogviewer by EFI Analytics, but I haven't dropped a dime on it yet. It seems like a lot of nice graphical stuff, but not sure what else it provides me. I'm comfortable with getting my bike tuned "good enough" with the tools at hand and leave well enough alone. I'm not chasing perfection or top performance, just a good running bike that will last.

I rarely ever wind my bike past 3.5K, only hit 4K the first time doing autotuning. I'm using stock O2 sensors and basic PV, the closed loop fits my riding style perfectly. I don't "grab a handful of throttle" and rev it until its about to sling a piston. I came to Harley from a Honda CBR600R, I don't ever want to an engine revving so high that it sounds like its screaming in pain again. I'm loving low RPMs and stump pulling torque.

Everything looks fine to my untrained eye, but I am getting spark retard events of 0.25 to 0.5 on about 12% of the events.
Here is what I've gathered with my non-expertise look into the data. As I accelerate and the MAP pressure increases above 50 Kpa, and the TP rises above 14, it starts having rear spark retard events regardless of speed, even if I hold the speed steady.
As the MAP pressure declines below 50 and TP drops below 14, the spark retard goes away. VSS doesn't seem to make any difference.

My analysis, there is a correlation between MAP and TP. MAP pressure above 50, TP above 14, regardless of speed causes rear spark retard events. Is that a problem? or should I ignore it? Are those statistically insignificant values? Should I try and manually correct it or leave it to PV autotune?

I like Jamie's map, it is a smoother map profile and it runs slightly richer than the autotuned map. The autotuned map leans out the range in which I mostly ride, but it did lower my spark knock events down by nearly half. I will run another autotune session again to see what impact that has on the numbers. Now, I had previously about 6 autotune sessions, but after talking with FuelMoto I think I "overtuned" it so I'm starting over with the original FuelMoto map. The bike runs good on the original map, and I could leave well enough alone, but my gut feel is that I should deal with the spark knock events on that rear cylinder, that may be a non issue, I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to know.

 

First thing to get a grip on is that the map Jamie sent will be an AFR map based on your set up (in this case, stock engine, slip ons and filter flowing more air than stock)

When you Autotune there is no change to that map. The PV is measuring the actual AFRs from the sensors. If the AFRs are different to the map the VE table will be adjusted to compensate the differences. When you write this version back to the ECM it will use these VEs to keep the AFRs on track. If you Autotune again the VE changes will be far lower of none at all.

if your bike is running closed loop it uses the sensor feedback to do the same thing.

On my bike the map was set up on a dynojet Dyno. So the map from that was my base. I use Target Tune with It’s wide band sensors Permentantly on the Bike. I run closed loop for every cell but Autotuned first many many times to give the ECM less closed loop work to do.

i spent a riding season with gauges set on the PV watching both AFRs, Revs, MAP, ET, HT and fuel consumption. I determined as many variables as I could riding hard on highways, what happened on grades without dropping a gear, what happened in heavy stop go traffic, what was going on riding long fast flat straights at low revs in high gear and then adjusted the reference AFR map from the Dyno. I knew when I wanted to Richen AFR to keep engine cooler on traffic, how far I could lean it up on lower revs with low MAPs to improve fuel consumption knowing the bike was rolling fast with plenty of cooling air etc.

with all this info I adjusted the AFR map and made that my new reference. Autotuned as much as possible, looked at the VE table and made my own decision for the cells not reached in the Autotune process. Remember, many of the cells are unreachable on the road because max load at lowest revs is an unnatural act for example. This is another reason why the Dyno better and faster. With final Autotune, VEs smoothed etc the ECM gets updated with instructions for closed loop in every cell.

Dyno guy told me stock ignition table good enough and you can check with Jamie for his opinion, until you have done the above for your fuelling I would suggest not even looking at timing events unless you can actually hear pinging as you ride. Once you got the Fuelling where you want it then dig into the ignition but take your time.

Sticking with WinPV is a good idea. Spreadsheets and more capable tools really not necessar.

Seriously consider the Target tune module with its wide bands. If you still have catalytic converter in the headers the mufflers and air filter flow ability is less relevant as the cat becomes the bottle neck followed by heads, valves and cams (but you get into new dimensions once those thoughts start to bug you)

Try to use revs vs MAP (essentially load on the engine, the MAP sensor is measuring the pressure in the induction system, you will see MAP increase as the exhaust gets louder when you hit a grade, poorly tuned bike gets louder but little more power in these conditions), measuring TP instead of revs shows the cause not the result.

there is a great pdf out there if you search it up which describes HD ECMs. I have it and read it ten times. Also any of the books out there on Amazon on Electronic Injection systems are great learning tools. They all predate your machine but are still relevant. I have read many since I bought the PV. I have a 2001 Softail with a fully modified engine and induction system that was set up with the PV on a Dyno and a 2010 Touring that has been through the same process. The Softail had
s the earlier ECM so that only works with the Autotune module. No close loop and I stick the sensors in only when I change discs in the Supertrapp or something else. The Target tune module, it’s sensors and PV live on the Touring bike all the time. I do regular 1000Km rides on it and enjoy the extra info on the gauges in the Batwing.

hope some of this waffle is useful

Some reading materiel references attached


Great read and very informative. You need to search for it

This is very comprehensive and more than you get with an iphone :-)

 

Hang on... you had your bike tuned on a Dyno, presumably by someone that knows what they are doing ...and then thought an "autotune" would make it better ?!?
I really like my PV ...but not THAT much, with or without TT

 

ha ha - no mate, that would be really silly. Read what I wrote more carefully.

to Lift the cover, the Dyno guy chose the AFRs for the base map based on what he knew about the build (CI, Cams, Headwork, pipes and air filter. He then adapted the VEs for max power across the range. He for sure knows what he was doing and we had a great day playing. We got what I wanted, 120TQ from 2,000 to 4,500 Revs where it starts to drop. Touring bike that needs to run full cruise control speed up and down the hills on Autobahn fully loaded with lady on the back.

Running an Autotune after this work would be a waste of time. You are right, would be a big Huh?

i didn’t “think I could do better”. I knew I could optimise it further. I could have taken it back and have the Dyno guy do it but as he sold me the PV so I could do this he would wonder why. A Dyno tune is essential after modding the bike and setting it up for max power. Is over the top for mods that can be experimented with using the PV

But I found the way I was using the bike (read what I wrote) it made sense to change the AFRs (no need fuelling for max power in a zone where the bike is cruising - PV will show you where this is at on the road) and lean AFRs in a zone not even looked at or measured on the Dyno (idling in traffic) means hotter HTs (again the PV will show you this)

loving the PV is not enough, you need to understand it and know how to use it.

See the results in the pics of temps vs AFRs. Shots taken after a hard run and within the couple of minutes it took to flash the ECM. Was a deliberate demo I did last year.

hope this helps



This was the low rev AFR set by the Dyno guy, you can check your own maps and will see this fairly normal

You can see the engine and Head temps are lower with the richer AFR. Yup, of course I changed it

 

I've been battling this problem ever since buying my bike in 2018.

Whenever coming to a stop, it gives out a thick fuel smell. Enough to make riders behind my choke and my own eyes to start watering :O
It feels like it is throwing this smell the moment it comes to a dead stop.

I ride everyday in the city and light to light. It seems to be less of a smell if I am out on the freeway cruising and then coming to a stop.

Been back and forth with Jamie but we couldn't quite seem to get it to go away even with his suggestions.

I even bit the bullet and bought an SE aluminium manifold as he was thinking my stock one was warped.

Would someone please help?

I do not have the stock tune to revert to, so I can't test if it's the pipe that's the problem.

I am running these on the 2018 Heritage Classic

1) cobra neighbour hater slip ons
2) SE extreme ventilator intake
3) SE intake manifold (aluminium)
4) PV tuner (map attached - https://wetransfer.com/downloads/f9f...5195025/bac1bf)

I will be sending beer to whoever helps to solve this, it's really been the bane of my riding but I am sur

 

If you've got the handlebar Mount put your PV there and set up gauges for map (or tps if you have a tps tune) ve, ve new front and rear. Put the bike in that same situation and see what you're map (or tps) is at idle. Should be roughly 35-ish kpa (usually 5-7 tps). Go into WinPV and lower your VE's at that rpm and kpa (or tps if you have a tps tune). Watching the ve and ve new can sometimes help show you if it's front or rear changing or both

 

Here is something that may be relevant here:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/engin...explained.html

 

Hi all,

thanks for the input.

Fellow forum members are the best!

I got help from Ke5rbd who took a look at my map & reduced the deceleration enleanment.

Loaded it & it still smells, although less, or maybe I am just mentally telling myself there is a change.

Either way, I did take the suggestion of riding in log mode and will be sending him a log.

Also did a test where I watched the gauge during auto tune. It seems the smell it thrown when I come to a stop and the VE table is in the 1250 rpm and 0 tps mode.

Bike runs amazing and even w the reduce decel that Ke5rbd did on the map, no popping.

Just an annoying stink!!!

 

I've been using the AT process on my 20 FLTRK 114 stage II. I have the PV2 along with HD Smart Tune Pro / WB02. On the PV I just use the Target Tune selection during AT sessions.

For the purposes of log tuning/analysis, I am thinking that the dynamic nature of the TT or Smart Tune Pro would render the ve data inconsistent. "A moving goal post."

Perhaps, I'm over-thinking things, but I am wondering if there is a way to disable smart tune corrections while logging? Or how others deal with my situation.

Thanks,
K