Power Vision Information Thread
#8401
04-01-2016, 10:10 PM
After not being able to get the spark tuning feature to work, I talked to DJ about feature and it is in redevelopment. Presently, it will only trim spark if it detects at least 8 hits in any one given cell area (min 8 hits is a fixed setting for this). And that is not likely to happen much in normal riding. So it's really not effective at all right now, but they are going to work on making it a more functional tuning tool. Jamie might know more about it - that's all I got. Don't fiddle fart with it too much 
;p
;p
#8402
04-01-2016, 11:04 PM
After not being able to get the spark tuning feature to work, I talked to DJ about feature and it is in redevelopment. Presently, it will only trim spark if it detects at least 8 hits in any one given cell area (min 8 hits is a fixed setting for this). And that is not likely to happen much in normal riding. So it's really not effective at all right now, but they are going to work on making it a more functional tuning tool. Jamie might know more about it - that's all I got. Don't fiddle fart with it too much ;p
;pI'm surprised DJ told you that its not effective. I'm beginning to question my decision to purchase the PV. I started a thread concerning how the basic AT works, because to me some of the information they provide in the User Guide doesn't make any sense. Check that post out and let me know your thoughts.
I'm going to fiddle fart around with the spark tables AT (until whittlebeast posts up a scatter plot saving us all...lol) just to see what it does. If it doesn't work, I will just use the method Steve Cole describes in the Master Tune User Guide. It takes awhile to do it, but it works.
#8403
04-01-2016, 11:33 PM
^ Yeh I totally hear you, there is no fast n easy for spark tuning without a dyno. takes some learning, logging, testing, logging, more learning, more testing. what helped me is breaking down my spark tuning to focus on specific areas of the spark tables one at a time- e.g. decel, idle, off idle, cruise, roll on, wot. by doing that it was easier vs hitting the entire table.
the PV is a great tool, makes it easy to do basics, but going to the advance stuff it gives you the data but up to the user to learn, interpret, apply. the TT add on does make VE tuning very easy though.
I agree the info provided by DJ could be worlds better and more detailed, consistent. Something at least as well done as the TTS guides. Not that I like the product-I feel the PV system is better - but I have referred to their tuning guides many times just for more concrete information on tuning areas, methods etc. the "FAQ" on the DJ page is kinda sparse and not much help beyond a few basics.
the PV is a great tool, makes it easy to do basics, but going to the advance stuff it gives you the data but up to the user to learn, interpret, apply. the TT add on does make VE tuning very easy though.
I agree the info provided by DJ could be worlds better and more detailed, consistent. Something at least as well done as the TTS guides. Not that I like the product-I feel the PV system is better - but I have referred to their tuning guides many times just for more concrete information on tuning areas, methods etc. the "FAQ" on the DJ page is kinda sparse and not much help beyond a few basics.
#8404
04-02-2016, 12:24 AM
^ Yeh I totally hear you, there is no fast n easy for spark tuning without a dyno. takes some learning, logging, testing, logging, more learning, more testing. what helped me is breaking down my spark tuning to focus on specific areas of the spark tables one at a time- e.g. decel, idle, off idle, cruise, roll on, wot. by doing that it was easier vs hitting the entire table.
the PV is a great tool, makes it easy to do basics, but going to the advance stuff it gives you the data but up to the user to learn, interpret, apply. the TT add on does make VE tuning very easy though.
I agree the info provided by DJ could be worlds better and more detailed, consistent. Something at least as well done as the TTS guides. Not that I like the product-I feel the PV system is better - but I have referred to their tuning guides many times just for more concrete information on tuning areas, methods etc. the "FAQ" on the DJ page is kinda sparse and not much help beyond a few basics.
the PV is a great tool, makes it easy to do basics, but going to the advance stuff it gives you the data but up to the user to learn, interpret, apply. the TT add on does make VE tuning very easy though.
I agree the info provided by DJ could be worlds better and more detailed, consistent. Something at least as well done as the TTS guides. Not that I like the product-I feel the PV system is better - but I have referred to their tuning guides many times just for more concrete information on tuning areas, methods etc. the "FAQ" on the DJ page is kinda sparse and not much help beyond a few basics.
I'm working with my in town Dyna now.
I'm not sold on the TT. I asked some questions of FM concerning the TT in another post and their answers were kind of vague. I was asking questions about the TT product. They were wanting my MAP and details on my build. I tried to explain that I didn't have a problem with my build or my MAP but just had questions about the product (TT). Something get lost in the translation. Another thing that kind of made me hesitant was a friend of mine said he saw a article where the guys that provides cams to FM made some pretty negative comments about the auto tuning. I found it odd. Initially, I thought it was something that I wanted to try, but I'm gonna wait a bit now. I'm sure as more folks buy it and start using it more details about how it works will come out.
You have any idea about the questions I posed in the thread I started about the PV Auto Tune Basic?
Last edited by oleboy; 04-02-2016 at 12:47 AM.
#8405
04-02-2016, 12:57 AM
I'll take a look at the thread but I am definitely not the expert on AT basic- I never liked it for my needs- I'm mainly about performance tuning and don't care a whole lot about mpg- it's a town / fun bike and all. for me, AT basic was acceptable to do basic VE tuning in economy areas. If I just want the bike to run better than stock and keep mpg up, it's perfect for that. but imo it is really hard to performance auto tune with NB sensors. I ended up diving in to HD Delphi, read everything I could on it, asked tons of questions to the expert tuners here, reviewed tons of tune files to see why things were done a certain way for a given build, and had one of the really knowledgeble members send me some good tune files as well as explain a lot of the fundamental principals. From there I just kept riding, logging, reading and making changes based on log data. Eventually I spotted more and more trends and correlations. Eventually I have some very good tunes for the bike but most of it was based on tweaking VE's by hand and never really getting them dialed in 100%.
Step in to the Target Tune arena and wow- that plug in works. two wide band AT runs and my VE's were dialed in about perfect. And riding the bike, the WB O2 sensors and TT operating in real time keep my VE's in line with target lambdas-regardless of bad gas, altitude, etc. that is plain bad ***.
Let's say I want to run a but richer idle and off idle for summer months- change a small area of lambda table, TT takes care of the rest. easy as pie. It is really a fantastic new product and works as advertised- I think anyone who is using it will say similar. It just took all the pain out of performance tuning VE and AFR.
With FM sometimes it's easier to call vs forum post- I know Jamie did a pretty good write up here: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-...er-vision.html
If you have other questions on it I may be able to fill in some blanks. but it's a damn awesome product. worth the price paid.
for spark tuning I push mine till I don't see any more than 2 tops with a low knock count. Any HD that is tuned for performance will have some slight knock. but the Delphi system will always correct for slight knock events so no harm and any recurring will get learned by the system / dropped. if you try to tune out all knock based on logging you'll end up with more sluggish performance, in most cases. rule of thumb I have been told is 2 or less don't sweat it.
Step in to the Target Tune arena and wow- that plug in works. two wide band AT runs and my VE's were dialed in about perfect. And riding the bike, the WB O2 sensors and TT operating in real time keep my VE's in line with target lambdas-regardless of bad gas, altitude, etc. that is plain bad ***.
Let's say I want to run a but richer idle and off idle for summer months- change a small area of lambda table, TT takes care of the rest. easy as pie. It is really a fantastic new product and works as advertised- I think anyone who is using it will say similar. It just took all the pain out of performance tuning VE and AFR.
With FM sometimes it's easier to call vs forum post- I know Jamie did a pretty good write up here: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-...er-vision.html
If you have other questions on it I may be able to fill in some blanks. but it's a damn awesome product. worth the price paid.
for spark tuning I push mine till I don't see any more than 2 tops with a low knock count. Any HD that is tuned for performance will have some slight knock. but the Delphi system will always correct for slight knock events so no harm and any recurring will get learned by the system / dropped. if you try to tune out all knock based on logging you'll end up with more sluggish performance, in most cases. rule of thumb I have been told is 2 or less don't sweat it.
#8406
04-02-2016, 02:40 AM
I'll take a look at the thread but I am definitely not the expert on AT basic- I never liked it for my needs- I'm mainly about performance tuning and don't care a whole lot about mpg- it's a town / fun bike and all. for me, AT basic was acceptable to do basic VE tuning in economy areas. If I just want the bike to run better than stock and keep mpg up, it's perfect for that. but imo it is really hard to performance auto tune with NB sensors. I ended up diving in to HD Delphi, read everything I could on it, asked tons of questions to the expert tuners here, reviewed tons of tune files to see why things were done a certain way for a given build, and had one of the really knowledgeble members send me some good tune files as well as explain a lot of the fundamental principals. From there I just kept riding, logging, reading and making changes based on log data. Eventually I spotted more and more trends and correlations. Eventually I have some very good tunes for the bike but most of it was based on tweaking VE's by hand and never really getting them dialed in 100%.
Step in to the Target Tune arena and wow- that plug in works. two wide band AT runs and my VE's were dialed in about perfect. And riding the bike, the WB O2 sensors and TT operating in real time keep my VE's in line with target lambdas-regardless of bad gas, altitude, etc. that is plain bad ***.
Let's say I want to run a but richer idle and off idle for summer months- change a small area of lambda table, TT takes care of the rest. easy as pie. It is really a fantastic new product and works as advertised- I think anyone who is using it will say similar. It just took all the pain out of performance tuning VE and AFR.
I can run richer or leaner if I choose. Once the VE tables are mapped I can change the AFR table to anything I like.
I can change all of those things on my non TT bike if I want. Once my VE tables are mapped and are accurate, I can change anything I want in my AFR table. Richer/leaner it doesn't matter.
With FM sometimes it's easier to call vs forum post- I know Jamie did a pretty good write up here: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-...er-vision.html
If you have other questions on it I may be able to fill in some blanks. but it's a damn awesome product. worth the price paid.
for spark tuning I push mine till I don't see any more than 2 tops with a low knock count. Any HD that is tuned for performance will have some slight knock. but the Delphi system will always correct for slight knock events so no harm and any recurring will get learned by the system / dropped. if you try to tune out all knock based on logging you'll end up with more sluggish performance, in most cases. rule of thumb I have been told is 2 or less don't sweat it.
Step in to the Target Tune arena and wow- that plug in works. two wide band AT runs and my VE's were dialed in about perfect. And riding the bike, the WB O2 sensors and TT operating in real time keep my VE's in line with target lambdas-regardless of bad gas, altitude, etc. that is plain bad ***.
Let's say I want to run a but richer idle and off idle for summer months- change a small area of lambda table, TT takes care of the rest. easy as pie. It is really a fantastic new product and works as advertised- I think anyone who is using it will say similar. It just took all the pain out of performance tuning VE and AFR.
I can run richer or leaner if I choose. Once the VE tables are mapped I can change the AFR table to anything I like.
I can change all of those things on my non TT bike if I want. Once my VE tables are mapped and are accurate, I can change anything I want in my AFR table. Richer/leaner it doesn't matter.
With FM sometimes it's easier to call vs forum post- I know Jamie did a pretty good write up here: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-...er-vision.html
If you have other questions on it I may be able to fill in some blanks. but it's a damn awesome product. worth the price paid.
for spark tuning I push mine till I don't see any more than 2 tops with a low knock count. Any HD that is tuned for performance will have some slight knock. but the Delphi system will always correct for slight knock events so no harm and any recurring will get learned by the system / dropped. if you try to tune out all knock based on logging you'll end up with more sluggish performance, in most cases. rule of thumb I have been told is 2 or less don't sweat it.
Last edited by oleboy; 04-02-2016 at 02:59 AM.
#8407
04-02-2016, 09:19 AM
I just don't see where the TT is any better than a basic auto tune. It's just VE/AFR mapping. You set the AFR table to whatever and then sample the pipe AFR reading. You adjust the VE tables until you get the target AFR table reading out of the pipes. It looks like the basic auto tune does this. What does the TT do above this?
google "narrow band vs wide band tuning" and you will get a lot of good hits on the topic- mainly automotive performance threads but the exact same principal applies.
keep in mind, TT operates the bike with full closed loop across the entire afr range in real time, and constantly adjusts VE to maintain lambda table targets. it is not possible to do that without WB sensors and the TT module. the PV with NB sensors only has closed loop in the small 14.2.-14.6 range, any richer than that it is totally open loop / solely relying on whatever the VE was tuned to. the NB sensor can only detect "rich" or "lean" outside of the small closed loop range, and it can end up still being quite a bit off in the richer performance areas that are open loop.
this is why most all of us are hand tuning the richer perofrmance VE areas based on log data when strictly using the stock NB system. the TT and WB eliminates all of that by completely automating the process and then maintaining it in real time.
Last edited by LA_Dog; 04-02-2016 at 09:29 AM.
#8408
04-02-2016, 10:58 AM
Road Master
That's cool- have a read up on this page it will help explain the differences between NB and WB sensors, there is a very big difference between the two. NB sensors are not going to to the same type of tuning job that WB sensors can do. http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tu...%20Basics.html
google "narrow band vs wide band tuning" and you will get a lot of good hits on the topic- mainly automotive performance threads but the exact same principal applies.
keep in mind, TT operates the bike with full closed loop across the entire afr range in real time, and constantly adjusts VE to maintain lambda table targets. it is not possible to do that without WB sensors and the TT module. the PV with NB sensors only has closed loop in the small 14.2.-14.6 range, any richer than that it is totally open loop / solely relying on whatever the VE was tuned to. the NB sensor can only detect "rich" or "lean" outside of the small closed loop range, and it can end up still being quite a bit off in the richer performance areas that are open loop.
this is why most all of us are hand tuning the richer perofrmance VE areas based on log data when strictly using the stock NB system. the TT and WB eliminates all of that by completely automating the process and then maintaining it in real time.
google "narrow band vs wide band tuning" and you will get a lot of good hits on the topic- mainly automotive performance threads but the exact same principal applies.
keep in mind, TT operates the bike with full closed loop across the entire afr range in real time, and constantly adjusts VE to maintain lambda table targets. it is not possible to do that without WB sensors and the TT module. the PV with NB sensors only has closed loop in the small 14.2.-14.6 range, any richer than that it is totally open loop / solely relying on whatever the VE was tuned to. the NB sensor can only detect "rich" or "lean" outside of the small closed loop range, and it can end up still being quite a bit off in the richer performance areas that are open loop.
this is why most all of us are hand tuning the richer perofrmance VE areas based on log data when strictly using the stock NB system. the TT and WB eliminates all of that by completely automating the process and then maintaining it in real time.
Another point to ponder, I've only seen a couple of bikes dyno tuned, Doc did my 12. He used the sniffer for the wot areas. Others use a attachment that go up closer to the head. If the machine (dyno) isn't calibrated every day, I read that somewhere, how accurate is it? Or if the tuner is having a bad day and miscalculated the readings how accurate is it. A good tuner is worth his weight in gold, but tt is a great tool for street tuning.
#8409
04-02-2016, 11:32 PM
That's cool- have a read up on this page it will help explain the differences between NB and WB sensors, there is a very big difference between the two. NB sensors are not going to to the same type of tuning job that WB sensors can do. http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tu...%20Basics.html
google "narrow band vs wide band tuning" and you will get a lot of good hits on the topic- mainly automotive performance threads but the exact same principal applies.
keep in mind, TT operates the bike with full closed loop across the entire afr range in real time, and constantly adjusts VE to maintain lambda table targets. it is not possible to do that without WB sensors and the TT module. the PV with NB sensors only has closed loop in the small 14.2.-14.6 range, any richer than that it is totally open loop / solely relying on whatever the VE was tuned to. the NB sensor can only detect "rich" or "lean" outside of the small closed loop range, and it can end up still being quite a bit off in the richer performance areas that are open loop.
this is why most all of us are hand tuning the richer perofrmance VE areas based on log data when strictly using the stock NB system. the TT and WB eliminates all of that by completely automating the process and then maintaining it in real time.
google "narrow band vs wide band tuning" and you will get a lot of good hits on the topic- mainly automotive performance threads but the exact same principal applies.
keep in mind, TT operates the bike with full closed loop across the entire afr range in real time, and constantly adjusts VE to maintain lambda table targets. it is not possible to do that without WB sensors and the TT module. the PV with NB sensors only has closed loop in the small 14.2.-14.6 range, any richer than that it is totally open loop / solely relying on whatever the VE was tuned to. the NB sensor can only detect "rich" or "lean" outside of the small closed loop range, and it can end up still being quite a bit off in the richer performance areas that are open loop.
this is why most all of us are hand tuning the richer perofrmance VE areas based on log data when strictly using the stock NB system. the TT and WB eliminates all of that by completely automating the process and then maintaining it in real time.
I'm confused again.
You indicated that it is not possible to do that without WB sensors and the TT module. the PV with NB sensors only has closed loop in the small 14.2.-14.6 range, any richer than that it is totally open loop / solely relying on whatever the VE was tuned to. the NB sensor can only detect "rich" or "lean" outside of the small closed loop range, and it can end up still being quite a bit off in the richer performance areas that are open loop.
If I auto tune with my narrow bands to correct my VE tables why would I need wide bands to correct my AFR as I ride. It would have corrected my whole MAP, at least the areas that I could ride and sample in.
Last edited by oleboy; 04-02-2016 at 11:35 PM.
#8410
04-02-2016, 11:57 PM
Well stated. I remember reading somewhere that nb sensor limits (bike) were closer .975 Lambda. After that the error factor increases a lot. Along those lines, .977 seems to be a reasonable min for the sensors to work properly. The wb sensors was one of the main reasons I went with tt as well. While I don't run real rich .966 lambda its nice to know you can, and keep the ECM in the loop.
Another point to ponder, I've only seen a couple of bikes dyno tuned, Doc did my 12. He used the sniffer for the wot areas. Others use a attachment that go up closer to the head. If the machine (dyno) isn't calibrated every day, I read that somewhere, how accurate is it? Or if the tuner is having a bad day and miscalculated the readings how accurate is it. A good tuner is worth his weight in gold, but tt is a great tool for street tuning.
Another point to ponder, I've only seen a couple of bikes dyno tuned, Doc did my 12. He used the sniffer for the wot areas. Others use a attachment that go up closer to the head. If the machine (dyno) isn't calibrated every day, I read that somewhere, how accurate is it? Or if the tuner is having a bad day and miscalculated the readings how accurate is it. A good tuner is worth his weight in gold, but tt is a great tool for street tuning.