Wmitz- thanks much. Now that you referenced your procedure, I recall playing with both 'smoothing' and charge dilution 2 or three years ago before PV Pro--in the days of basic. I didn't invest much time in it, because the tune on that bike was close enough that I did not realize any significant effects.
In actuality, rather than looking for a seat-of-the-pants difference I could feel, I should have been paying closer attention to the data changes.
I do know that when the tune is as close as one can expect (and I'm talking about some VE tune runs where there was literally less than 1-2% change in less than a dozen cells), it's time to do some careful smoothing and do some more runs to log the effects.
I think I'm up over 300 tuning runs on this bike; but I've also made some significant equipment changes during that time as well.
Again, thanks much for the information.

 

Dog: And the world keeps tu(r)ning... I visited several times with Frank (TuneMyHarley) back in the day when TTS was first coming out (after the SERT days) and Doc (in FL) was doing a lot of DJ training on TTS. Frank was a big advocate of simplifying DY tuning and trying to get 90-95% there which is good enough for 99% riders. I think I still have a purchased subscription from Frank in fact. I'll have to dig that out and give it a spin.

OK, looking at your PE references and the references in WinPV, I'm confused. The WinPV settings/explanations in my DJ tune are:

PE disable RPM: 3250 [PEmode will be disabled at RPMs less than this setting]
PE enable RPM: 10000 [PE mode will be activated at RPMs greater than this setting] [To disable PE, set this value to/greater than your RPM limiter]
PE disable TPS: 60 [PE mode will be disabled if TPS is lessthan this setting]
PE enable TPS: 65 [PE mode will be activated if TPS isgreater than this setting]
Obviously, setting the PE enable RPM at 1000 permanently disables PE.

So, applying the WinPV logic to your post gives me:
PE disable RPM: 2800 rpm (according to the latest TTS tuning manual, this setting will negate enabling PE at 2600rpm)
PE enable RPM: 2600 rpm
PE disable TPS: 95 [TTS Master Tune: ~5% = 60 x 1.05 = 100] (according to the latest TTS tuning this setting will negate enabling PE at TPS 90)
PE enable TPS: 90 [S.Cole-TTS: TPS enable always ~5% higher than TPS disable to prevent erratic running]

Did I interpret your post correctly? I seems to be the opposite of the settings in the TTS Master Tune instructions for employing PE settings.
Just curious and trying to understand; you've certainly read much more in depth on this than have I... just trying to learn here.
Thanks much for your consideration.

 

PE fuel is very simple actually, its there to provide an additional dynamic beyond the standard Fuel Lambda/AF lookup table. It's primary function lies within in its description; Power Enrichment, additional fuel when the motor requires it.
When a motor is subjected to load it requires additional fuel for various reasons including to lower EGT (on gasoline engines), PE fuel is used to offset the base fuel table when load requires it. One example would be if your cruising at highway speed in closed loop @ 14.7 AFR and roll into full WOT to pass for 10,15 or say 20 seconds. If your base AF target was 12.8 PE fuel may richen it to 12.5. It's the control systems way of using the fuel side of things to help prevent detonation at continuous load. On a well tuned bike you will find PE fuel delta's to be fairly minimal in most applications.

 

Jamie, thanks for confirming what I thought I was reading in WinPV.
Now the question is why my 'tune' is set for this value: "PE enable RPM: 10000"?
In other words, the setting appears to be preventing the application of PE throughout the RPM range given the WinPV description of this particular setting switch: "PE mode will be activated at RPMs greater than this setting; To disable PE, set this value to/greater than your RPM limiter".

My related question deals with PE duration timing.
You mentioned "10, 15, or say 20 seconds" -- would one set the PE time duration for the tune in the PE AFR lookup table?

Thanks for your help, as always much appreciated.

 

If PE enable RPM is set to 10000 RPM, PE is turned off in your calibration. All depends on the tune and the combination. The PE fuel Lambda/AF target is set in the PE Air-fuel ratio table, the column is based on seconds and desired AF target. We generally set PE fuel the same or slightly richer than the 100Kpa column of the base Lambda/AF table for about 10 seconds and then go incrementally richer.

ALSO NOTE: PE Fuel is calculated into the Desired AFR & Desired Lambda channels on the ECM's databus

 

"PE disable RPM: 3250 [PEmode will be disabled at RPMs less than this setting]
PE enable RPM: 10000 [PE mode will be activated at RPMs greater than this setting] [To disable PE, set this value to/greater than your RPM limiter]"

how do these have to be set up to enable PE? do you put 0 in one of them?

 

PE Enable RPM is generally in the 3500-5000 RPM range, the PE Disable RPM should generally be the PE Enable value minus 250-500 RPM hysterisis.
Example: PE Enable RPM 3500, PE Disable RPM 3250

 

thanks, checked mine and its:

PE Enable:4250
PE Disable: 4000

 

Thanks Jamie for providing added info and helping everyone to understand the functions within our tuning files. The PE settings we have are extremely limited in usefulness compared to the full set of PE functions available in present day automotive Delphi systems- But at least we can try to make better use of what we do have.

I wonder if it is possible to either expose the full range of Delphi PE functions for tuning in the HD system? For example, PE vs RPM AFR table instead of PE vs Time AFR table. Actually I think only the HD system uses a PE vs Time AFR method.

The main points of instruction I got about using PE successfully is to enable it at the realistic range of RPM you'll normally be whacking WOT from.

Most riders will be in the 2500-3500 range of cruising RPM when the need to "let er rip" comes on. From this you can play around with the PE Enable and Disable RPMs and adjust it to your liking. Me personally I never try to hit WOT from any gear (except 1st) when I'm under 2600-2800 RPM. I'm usually cruising light throttle in any given gear between 2500-3500 RPM. If I set PE enable at say 4500 RPM or higher, that is pointless for me. When was the last time you were cruising along at 4500 or more RPM and decided to WOT? Never?

So my PE enable RPM is set to 2600. I always set PE Disable RPM a couple hundred RPM lower than the Enable setting. That gives the PE RPM function some "buffer" RPM play between an 'enabled' and 'disabled' state for the RPM portion of activation.

For PE throttle position enable I've played with setting it anywhere from 60% to 90%. Again I find this type of control lacking compared to a MAP based method, but it's better than nothing. Maybe try it at 80% for enable - ride it- and adjust it up or down from there. The Disable setting should always be .5 lower than your enable setting as the buffer for the throttle position portion of PE activation.

PE AFR setting for first 10 seconds should be set richer than any AFR value in the AFR table, as Jamie mentioned. After 10 seconds it can be set even richer on a progressive scale. For example, your 80-100 columns in the AFR table are 13.2 going up to 12.9 in richness, and 12.9 is the richest AFR value in your table for the 80-100 columns.
Set 1st 10 seconds of PE AFR to 12.8 or 12.5 - After 10 seconds go to 12.3, 12.0, 11.8, etc. - Again these are just example numbers.

Remember that PE AFR does not kick in until both PE RPM enable -and- PE TPS enable settings are met.

Examples, assuming a PE RPM enable of 2600 rpm and PE TPS enable of 90%:

> If you into your PE RPM Enable RPM of 2600, but are not at PE TPS enable of 90% throttle, then PE AFR does not engage.

> If you are into your PE TPS Enable of 90% throttle, but below the PE RPM Enable of 2600, then PE AFR is not engaged.

> If you are at both 2600+ RPM -and- 90%+ throttle, PE is immediately engaged.

Anyway, really good discussion track guys on advanced tuning topics, hope to see more of this.

 

I agree. *Disclaimer* I'm not a PV fan

but nonetheless have to use them from time to time. I discovered early on that if you're not spending $25k with DJ, their support is the pits and they rely on their vendors too heavily IMO to shoulder the burden of supporting their products to the end users. Must be one hell of a kick back to vendors from DJ to take the time to do this.

Anyways, I've never gotten a straight answer out of them for anything whatsoever to do with maps, PV, or even PCV. This is precisely the reason I spend the extra few bucks when I need one and go to S&S for it. At least when I call there for some advice on something, it's solid, proven, technically sound advice that I can run with and not 2nd guess their answers.