Power Vision Information Thread
#7251
06-02-2015, 08:25 AM
Road Warrior
Those ovals around the 14.5 -14.4 areas indicate that his AFR is within the set Closed Loop Lambda range. That is an ugly AFR table, I can only wonder what your VE and Spark advance look like.
Here's my summer AFR table
Here's the view I like, No flat tops, or steep cliffs except my decel column, Smooth trasitions through the RPM power band. Not like jumping off a cliff into the deep end of the pool.
Here's my summer AFR table
Here's the view I like, No flat tops, or steep cliffs except my decel column, Smooth trasitions through the RPM power band. Not like jumping off a cliff into the deep end of the pool.
Last edited by Smokey Stover; 06-02-2015 at 08:45 AM. Reason: pics
#7252
06-02-2015, 08:26 AM
Stellar HDF Member
Reading your responses below and in other posts you've made I can't help wondering if the builder you are using is real famliar with the PowerVision product, which many are not. If not, he may be doing his best with what he knows, but maybe he's more of a SERT guy, or some other tuner products.
Also, has he walked through your entire build with you, with the concept that the whole thing is one big system, and all the parts need to complement each other. I did a search of S&S 106 motors and quickly see that there are a lot of flavors to them so not sure what one you have. (stock heads, hi-performance heads, various pistons etc) But, I still wonder how well they are matched to your exhaust system. What head pipe are you using with those CFRs? (I know they are pretty and look cool, but I question how well they match the build across the power band.)
There's also this nagging possibility that you have 2 types of tunes in play here. The Dynotune done by the builder and your own Autotune you got done by the fact that you have the AutoTune Pro kit. I wonder if there is a chance that you've gotten some of the tuning wrong by mixing these together or some such.
When you did your AutoTunes, what base map did you start with? Was it something S&S gave you, or Dynojet? Or were you doing it with the Dyno tune you got from the builder?
Lot's of questions, but really your best bet is resolve the Throttle Body/Injector question first and then deal with the "get the tune right" process.
[QUOTE=whynotf75;14074957]
Also, has he walked through your entire build with you, with the concept that the whole thing is one big system, and all the parts need to complement each other. I did a search of S&S 106 motors and quickly see that there are a lot of flavors to them so not sure what one you have. (stock heads, hi-performance heads, various pistons etc) But, I still wonder how well they are matched to your exhaust system. What head pipe are you using with those CFRs? (I know they are pretty and look cool, but I question how well they match the build across the power band.)
There's also this nagging possibility that you have 2 types of tunes in play here. The Dynotune done by the builder and your own Autotune you got done by the fact that you have the AutoTune Pro kit. I wonder if there is a chance that you've gotten some of the tuning wrong by mixing these together or some such.
When you did your AutoTunes, what base map did you start with? Was it something S&S gave you, or Dynojet? Or were you doing it with the Dyno tune you got from the builder?
Lot's of questions, but really your best bet is resolve the Throttle Body/Injector question first and then deal with the "get the tune right" process.
[QUOTE=whynotf75;14074957]
A couple questions.
When you did Autotunes, did you successfuly get through the entire rpm range and iteratively finally get to a set of values within 5% or less through that range? Also as you did go through the autotunes did the ATs want to scale up and if you allowed the scale up, what final displacement value did you land on and were you finally able to do an AT without a request to continue to scale higher?
answer
I made sure I ran it through the rpm ranges many times that I was getting the lean dead spot in. I am not sure about the 5% or less it did ask if I wanted to reset values or something and I did..
I'd be interested in what your AFR lambda settings are for that rpm range also?
answer
I can text you a pic of the afr lambda. my cell is 440-251-3500 text me and I will send you a pic.
I do agree with LAdog that this should have shown during the dyno, and all of the settings you now have in your PV should be the result of that dynotune.
answer
I cant find the dyno graph I had but I even returned it to them and they did another dyno run and it still was the same,I will look through some pics I may have taken a pic to post on facebook of the graph.
The reason I ask about the scaling up thing, is when FuelMoto built my engine, they did an initial Dyno and found my fuel pump system to be failing at about 3500 rpm. The system just couldn't deliver anymore fuel at wot/high rpm, yet at lower rpms it felt fine. My only indication prior to the dynotune Jaime did was that the ATs kept wanting to scale up for the higher rpm numbers.
I've attached my dyno sheet for the example of what it looked like. Note the AFR just continues to gradually get leaner as the revs move beyond 3Krpm.
Makes me wonder if you don't have something similar.
Or, another thought, what are you using for a throttle body and injectors? Have those been upgraded? I wonder if they are able to deliver the fuel you need with that build? (but still that should have shown when you had a dynotune done)
answer
everything is stock except for the s&s 106 big bore and the cams and what ever cam with them. I wanted to do a fuel moto 107 kit but my builder kept directing me towards S&S..
I really appreciate your response and help trying to figure this out....
When you did Autotunes, did you successfuly get through the entire rpm range and iteratively finally get to a set of values within 5% or less through that range? Also as you did go through the autotunes did the ATs want to scale up and if you allowed the scale up, what final displacement value did you land on and were you finally able to do an AT without a request to continue to scale higher?
answer
I made sure I ran it through the rpm ranges many times that I was getting the lean dead spot in. I am not sure about the 5% or less it did ask if I wanted to reset values or something and I did..
I'd be interested in what your AFR lambda settings are for that rpm range also?
answer
I can text you a pic of the afr lambda. my cell is 440-251-3500 text me and I will send you a pic.
I do agree with LAdog that this should have shown during the dyno, and all of the settings you now have in your PV should be the result of that dynotune.
answer
I cant find the dyno graph I had but I even returned it to them and they did another dyno run and it still was the same,I will look through some pics I may have taken a pic to post on facebook of the graph.
The reason I ask about the scaling up thing, is when FuelMoto built my engine, they did an initial Dyno and found my fuel pump system to be failing at about 3500 rpm. The system just couldn't deliver anymore fuel at wot/high rpm, yet at lower rpms it felt fine. My only indication prior to the dynotune Jaime did was that the ATs kept wanting to scale up for the higher rpm numbers.
I've attached my dyno sheet for the example of what it looked like. Note the AFR just continues to gradually get leaner as the revs move beyond 3Krpm.
Makes me wonder if you don't have something similar.
Or, another thought, what are you using for a throttle body and injectors? Have those been upgraded? I wonder if they are able to deliver the fuel you need with that build? (but still that should have shown when you had a dynotune done)
answer
everything is stock except for the s&s 106 big bore and the cams and what ever cam with them. I wanted to do a fuel moto 107 kit but my builder kept directing me towards S&S..
I really appreciate your response and help trying to figure this out....
Last edited by oldhippie; 06-02-2015 at 10:14 AM.
#7253
06-02-2015, 08:31 AM
Stellar HDF Member
Ah, good point the Lamda table works slightly different that the AFR table where 14.6 is the switch to closed loop.
#7254
06-02-2015, 08:46 AM
. If I make a humble suggestion, try moving your closed loop AFRs up to 2k - 3k range. by having a bit richer AFR below 2k it should help with off-idle response in the low map range. I had this suggested to me and it makes sense, it made a bit of difference. thinking about it, i would never be cruising at less than 2400 anyway. only time I am at below 2k is when accelerating off idle towards a cruising rpm range. Anyway by doing this i was able to run a bit more timing advance in that same off-idle rpm area, and pick up better acceleration without any knock.fwiw- ;D
Last edited by LA_Dog; 06-02-2015 at 08:57 AM.
#7255
06-02-2015, 08:50 AM
nope- it's the same thing but you can display it either in AFR values or lambda values. anything in bold in the AFR table is closed loop AFR. the ECM has a "closed loop lambda range" and it is typically set from 14.2 up. I read that the NB O2 can work within a narrow range and still be reasonably accurate.
#7256
06-02-2015, 08:54 AM
Reading your responses below and in other posts you've made I can't help wondering if the builder you are using is real famliar with the PowerVision product, which many are not. If not, he may be doing his best with what he knows, but maybe he's more of a SERT guy, or some other tuner products.
Also, has he walked through your entire build with you, with the concept that the whole thing is one big system, and all the parts need to complement each other. I did a search of S&S 106 motors and quickly see that there are a lot of flavors to them so not sure what one you have. (stock heads, hi-performance heads, various pistons etc) But, I still wonder how well they are matched to your exhaust system. What head pipe are you using with those CFRs? (I know they are pretty and look cool, but I question how well they match the build across the power band.)
There's also this nagging possibility that have 2 types of tunes in play here. The Dynotune done by the builder and your own Autotune you got done by the fact that you have the AutoTune Pro kit. I wonder if there is a chance that you've gotten some of the tuning wrong by mixing these together or some such.
When you did your AutoTunes, what base map did you start with? Was it something S&S gave you, or Dynojet? Or were you doing it with the Dyno tune you got from the builder?
Lot's of questions, but really your best bet is resolve the Throttle Body/Injector question first and then deal with the "get the tune right" process.
Also, has he walked through your entire build with you, with the concept that the whole thing is one big system, and all the parts need to complement each other. I did a search of S&S 106 motors and quickly see that there are a lot of flavors to them so not sure what one you have. (stock heads, hi-performance heads, various pistons etc) But, I still wonder how well they are matched to your exhaust system. What head pipe are you using with those CFRs? (I know they are pretty and look cool, but I question how well they match the build across the power band.)
There's also this nagging possibility that have 2 types of tunes in play here. The Dynotune done by the builder and your own Autotune you got done by the fact that you have the AutoTune Pro kit. I wonder if there is a chance that you've gotten some of the tuning wrong by mixing these together or some such.
When you did your AutoTunes, what base map did you start with? Was it something S&S gave you, or Dynojet? Or were you doing it with the Dyno tune you got from the builder?
Lot's of questions, but really your best bet is resolve the Throttle Body/Injector question first and then deal with the "get the tune right" process.
yep you nailed it- he can't do squat for proper tuning on that nice 106 build until the fuel delivery is sorted out. HD Delphi is the same regardless of tuning tool used to access it. Same fuel tables, timing etc. - If a dyno tuner understands what he's doing it would be apparent. in this case, not so much.
#7257
06-02-2015, 09:08 AM
Road Warrior
That may be on older bikes or versions of WinPV/PV firmware/software. The switch is now the Closed Loop Lambda Range and you can see stoich by checking/unchecking the little box in the corner.
#7258
06-02-2015, 09:29 AM
Road Warrior
now that's a nice AFR table . If I make a humble suggestion, try moving your closed loop AFRs up to 2k - 3k range. by having a bit richer AFR below 2k it should help with off-idle response in the low map range. I had this suggested to me and it makes sense, it made a bit of difference. thinking about it, i would never be cruising at less than 2400 anyway. only time I am at below 2k is when accelerating off idle towards a cruising rpm range. Anyway by doing this i was able to run a bit more timing advance in that same off-idle rpm area, and pick up better acceleration without any knock.
fwiw- ;D
. If I make a humble suggestion, try moving your closed loop AFRs up to 2k - 3k range. by having a bit richer AFR below 2k it should help with off-idle response in the low map range. I had this suggested to me and it makes sense, it made a bit of difference. thinking about it, i would never be cruising at less than 2400 anyway. only time I am at below 2k is when accelerating off idle towards a cruising rpm range. Anyway by doing this i was able to run a bit more timing advance in that same off-idle rpm area, and pick up better acceleration without any knock.fwiw- ;D
#7259
06-02-2015, 10:40 AM
cool- you know your bike very well. although, something to consider is your spark advance in those areas. more advance will accommodate more fuel, less advance with more fuel would be doggy as you described. but hey if you got it dialed in why mess with it
attached is my front spark table just as a comparison. rear is pretty much the same except i have tuned it differently in certain cells based on my log data.
attached is my front spark table just as a comparison. rear is pretty much the same except i have tuned it differently in certain cells based on my log data.
#7260
06-02-2015, 10:45 AM
Stellar HDF Member
nope- it's the same thing but you can display it either in AFR values or lambda values. anything in bold in the AFR table is closed loop AFR. the ECM has a "closed loop lambda range" and it is typically set from 14.2 up. I read that the NB O2 can work within a narrow range and still be reasonably accurate.
My understanding is that 14.6 or the lambda "1" equivalent is a "software switch" that turns on closed loop tuning and that the sensors working with the ECM in closed loop mode.
"Using a value of 14.6 enables the ECM's ability to maintain closed loop fuel control." (from the explanantion in WinPV below the table for AFR based bikes)
However, (on page 75) of the PV manual it also states for AFR lambda, "Normally, using values between .98 and 1.02 allows the ECM to mainain closed loop fuel control."
So that's interesting, that with the cable throttle bikes, there is a difference, (I think!) between how closed loop gets turned on and off. The TBW bikes appear to be smarter, and not need a on/off switch type but just stay between that range.