The 3.91gm injectors on the cable throttle bikes are definitely small, generally speaking they will support mid 90's for HP

 

Thanks Jamie- And that would be about right given my log data with just a stage1 kit. At high MAP, 3k rpm and above, more than 50% TP I see duty cycle at 80% most of the time, up to 103% with higher rpm WOT blasts.

 

[QUOTE=oldhippie;14073104]A couple questions.

When you did Autotunes, did you successfuly get through the entire rpm range and iteratively finally get to a set of values within 5% or less through that range? Also as you did go through the autotunes did the ATs want to scale up and if you allowed the scale up, what final displacement value did you land on and were you finally able to do an AT without a request to continue to scale higher?

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I made sure I ran it through the rpm ranges many times that I was getting the lean dead spot in. I am not sure about the 5% or less it did ask if I wanted to reset values or something and I did..

I'd be interested in what your AFR lambda settings are for that rpm range also?

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I can text you a pic of the afr lambda. my cell is 440-251-3500 text me and I will send you a pic.


I do agree with LAdog that this should have shown during the dyno, and all of the settings you now have in your PV should be the result of that dynotune.


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I cant find the dyno graph I had but I even returned it to them and they did another dyno run and it still was the same,I will look through some pics I may have taken a pic to post on facebook of the graph.



The reason I ask about the scaling up thing, is when FuelMoto built my engine, they did an initial Dyno and found my fuel pump system to be failing at about 3500 rpm. The system just couldn't deliver anymore fuel at wot/high rpm, yet at lower rpms it felt fine. My only indication prior to the dynotune Jaime did was that the ATs kept wanting to scale up for the higher rpm numbers.

I've attached my dyno sheet for the example of what it looked like. Note the AFR just continues to gradually get leaner as the revs move beyond 3Krpm.
Makes me wonder if you don't have something similar.

Or, another thought, what are you using for a throttle body and injectors? Have those been upgraded? I wonder if they are able to deliver the fuel you need with that build? (but still that should have shown when you had a dynotune done)



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everything is stock except for the s&s 106 big bore and the cams and what ever cam with them. I wanted to do a fuel moto 107 kit but my builder kept directing me towards S&S..

I really appreciate your response and help trying to figure this out....

 

Wait- Your builder put this together for you and did not spec in the larger injectors? or did not see it on the dyno?? That's a major WTF. Especially with pushing the S&S stuff- S&S makes a larger throttle body, intake and injector kit that's not bad at all.

Engine building 101 - Bigger motors need more fuel. Just like back in the carby days when you'd have to either put larger jets in the carb or go one size larger on the carb itself.

If you do the 50mm TB (or a 51, 52 but no larger) and go with larger injectors (4.9, 5.3) and have your bike properly dyno tuned, I think you'll be a happy camper. since you have S&S parts maybe give a call to S&S for the TB kit. Or try Jamie at FuelMoto, or Horsepower Inc.

You have a nice build but you need to feed it, it's hungry

 

yeh lighter bike and i run a fairly rich fuel map. my idle AFR is around 12.1, cruise area is small and 14.1. it's a town bike so I'm not concerned with mpg.

 

Here is the air fuel lambda chart. I don't know what to look for or what it all means. I just run auto tune lol I think this whole set up is too advanced for me would like to just get it right and forget it haha

 

Some pretty rich values over on the right columns- but your injectors can't keep up with that when your rpm's go up and you give it some throttle. normally you'd see values in the range of 12.1 to 12.5 - a lot of that table makes no sense to me at all. For example, you got 12.9 AFR in the 90 column next to 11.2 at 100. Who does that??

Unfortunately- Simple went out the window once you decided to upgrade the motor- what's a shame is your builder seems to have done a less than adequate job and you are left with a lighter wallet and a bike that does not perform as expected. if it were me, I'd be raising some serious hell with the shop. but that's just me, i have low tolerance for poor or incomplete work.

Just my 2c you need to have a good shop get you back on track if your builder will not step up, or is simply not capable of stepping up. If there is no one local then give some of the good reputable builders a call - Jamie @ FuelMoto, Scott @ Hillside Cycle, Zippers, places like that.

Bottom line is you're not going to be able to fix this without mechanical intervention and a proper tune. We can help here with a tune file but there is no way around too small of injectors. Once you get this fixed I think you'll be pretty happy, assuming the right cam, compression etc were set up by the builder. sounds like its running ok other than running out of fuel / running lean.

 

Thanks Jamie. What is the "normal" ET range for a sportster? My ET was around 380 after autotune.

 

That is a interesting and unusual AFR chart for sure. No 14.6 settings indicate this is a totally open loop tune where the ECM isn't going to use the sensors to seek stochiometric for cruise range. (cleanest burn best fuel efficiency) Then the 11.9 for WOT, seems like the tuner is trying to dump as much fuel as possible into the engine. Most tunes won't show anything more than 12.X for WOT.

I'm not sure what the Throttle Bodies in the 2012 touring models actually support for fuel delivery but it sure seems like a strong possibility that the TB/injector is a weak link in the system.

Also, I think I have read on more than one occassion that those CFRs are very difficult to tune. They are BIG low restriction pipes so making the need for a richer mix even more important, again maybe why those WOT settings are so rich. (afterthought: and why they didn't use 14.6 for the cruise range)

I dunno, I'm just a hacker when it comes to the fine details, but I do know all the parts have to complement each other and that TB is the pipe all the gas needs to get through to get to the engine.

Question, does this S&S build you have come with high performance heads or is it stock heads, pistons etc? You didn't get a dyno print out?

 

you can specify closed loop from 14.2-14.68 in the AFR table. burning at stoich is not necessarily the best for the motor. it is the best for epa and air quality though. i have my cruise AFR's at 14.1 and there's a lot of guys that run them at 13.8. as long as VE's are dialed in correctly then you can run open loop AFRs and get the bike quite dialed in for your particular riding. I can understand why riders that are mainly touring long distances want the best economy in the cruise range and will keep it closed loop. for mainly town riding, having idle and cruise richer makes for a cooler running bike at the expense of some mpg.