Ok, so I want you to look at the two VE tables I attached. One is the front cylinder from fuel moto. The other is the front cylinder after I did 3 AT sessions. As you can see, my AT sessions leaned the **** out of the table in all of the cells I hit, which you can clearly see right through the middle. Coincidentally, these are mostly the areas where I'm getting the most pings.

So this leads me to believe that if the pings are due to running lean in these areas, then the autotune sessions are actually messing things up. Maybe the O2 sensors are bad, or maybe basic autotuning just sucks. I'm leaning towards the latter. After seeing the results of the sessions, I had just assumed that fuel moto's VE tables were not accurate for my bike...after all nobody seems to have a proper tune for a Supertrapp pipe. Oh, and I did run FM's tune without any adjustments when I first got it...pinged like a mother before the engine even got to full temp. But then I realized that FM's spark table is WAY more aggressive than the previous tune I'd been running, which I got from dynojet.

So what I'm going to test tomorrow is...forget my previous AT sessions. I erased them and went back to FM's VE tables, which are super rich in the trouble areas. Then I changed my spark tables back to factory stock. I left the AFR table at my current super rich, open loop settings.

SO...now I'm running as rich as ever, with as conservative spark settings as ever. If I still get knocks, that's it...I will just concede that in the summer when it's 95+ outside, I'm gonna have to go easy on it.

One interesting piece of info I learned riding tonight when it was only 80 degrees out...the IAT temps stayed below 120F, and I had no knocks. Almost every time I get knocks, it's been during the day when IAT gets above 120F.

 

Red, I hope you don't mind if I ask, Sometimes something simple overlooked can cause all kinds of problems. I not familiar with the Supermeg, Is it a header and slip on? If so did you install it yourself or even if you didn't. Have you checked that the O2 sensors are in correctly? Black plug to rear cylinder. Or could there be an exhaust leak, Damaged gasket? Heat shields tight? You say you can hear it,But have you enabled your gauges to log data for Log Tuner? And view those logs in Excell.LT will only pull enough spark,when and where needed to correct knock events.LT still works for spark without having to modify the CSV log files for VE tuning,It will just tell you those files are missing.Maybe try putting stock pipes back on and see what happens.Other than that I'm at a loss. Neither FM or DJ had starter tunes for my S&S /V&H combo and my VE's also leaned out from the start but it ended up with a great tune and no knock after a bit of Trial and error and help from all here on HDF.

 

No worries man, trust me I've been going over everything as well. But yes, I'm sure it's all installed correctly and I just recently checked the exhaust for leaks. I've actually been considering getting rid of the Supermeg and gettting a Rinhart 2-1, but I'm not sure I wanna drop the cash for it right now. But I do keep wondering if it's just something about my setup. Removing and installing exhaust is such a pain in the ***, I don't wanna put stock pipes on just for diagnostic purposes. Mainly cuz I'm not sure I would learn anything useful.

And I have been using log tuner a lot, almost every time I ride now, so that I can catch all the knock events and analyze them.

Oh, regarding the whole crankcase venting thing...your hidden setup is sweet. I've been trying to figure out what to do with mine. My heavy breather plumbing isn't as simple as yours, and it looks like DK doesn't have any breather solution that will work with mine. BUT...yesterday when I removed the intake to spray it out with seafoam, I was surprised that there really wasnt much oil in the TB throat at all. With all the carbon I'm getting on the pistons I was expecting there to be a lot more.

 

Just keep trying, It'll feel good when you get it figured out.
This is what I drained outta my catch can last night. Had to pull the drainplug because it was so gunky that it wouldn't drain out the petcock.oily watery slime. Of course it looks worse than what I saw dripping from my intake and air filter,That looked like mostly oil, the water vapors that condense in the crankcase must be vented into the intake and inhaled before remixing with oil like this, being shaken in the can like a paint mixer.I'm just glad it's not going into my motor.

 

Ooops

 

At least now you have had it Dyno'ed, you have a superb base map. So you can now load that up on the computer and compare to your previous maps to see exactly what the dyno guys did to get it running so good. Should be pretty educational.

I have mine booked in for the dyno in about 2 weeks. I think it's running great now, but I still want a real pro to look it over and just make it perfect! There's probably a few more HP or Ft/Lbs to be squeezed out.

I had a base map from Fuel Moto, then did a few hours of auto tuning and then sent the resulting map to Jamie to mess with. He did some tweaking and as I said, the bike is now running superbly. I just want the piece of mind that I know getting it dyno'ed will give me.

 

Red, I feel for you man, you are parroting my whole last summer.

It sounds like you are using Log Tunner instead of Autotune, if you are not I would switch to that. Also, one thing that helped me last year was downloading Megalogviewer http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/ it does cost money, however it is worth it. Your log files will open with it, without making any changes to them. You appear to be pretty computer efficient so it won't be a stretch for you to use. Megalogviewer allows you to look at a whole run in graph format with all the data on the screen... I wish DJ would incorporate something like this.

I saw stailjim mention plug wires. Last year while fighting my issues I replaced all wire and coil, went with a Accel. It didn't fix the problem, however there was a noticeable performance change (seat of the pants) problem was it actually made the pinging worse.

If you go back to the thread about breathers, would you say from what you can see, does your piston looks like the piston on that thread with a "6" on it??? If yes, you have an oil issue. It may not be an breather issue either. Knowing what I know now, and have already done. I would dump your current oil, refill with 3.25 to 3.5 quarts (don't follow the book 3.75 to 4). Warm up, achieve an kickstand position that you can repeat in the future and mark your dipstick, I put a notch in mine. Continue to test and while doing so check your oil here and there.

A few of the things I learned from Dan B. was, with heavy carbon build up, the carbon is actually changing the compression of the combustion chamber (it is taking up space), the carbon can actually retain enough heat to cause pre det. or pinging. The process of oil getting there whether it be breather, valve guides, rings will screw up your mixture... Your VE map leaning out like it is brings back memories. Dan speculated in my case that once my motor reached X temp, the expansion of jugs/pistons was enough to allow oil past my miss sized sweeper rings, which caused mixture issues, carbon, pining etc etc. The one thing that Dan was really clear on is, any piston with that much carbon on it is burning oil, pistons with 100k on them will be black or dark brown, but it will be a smooth layer and thin. Never a scaly cracked look with thick and thin regions especially around the exhaust side of the piston. **Here is a scenario for you,,,, Lets say you have heavy build up on your pistons, lets say your PV is leaning out the VE's because it is getting excess oil which is fooling the O2's as being too rich. Lets say there is enough carbon to have changed your compression ratio... **Now lets say you seafoam the motor, you remove some or a lot of carbon... What are you left with?? A larger combustion chamber with a super lean mixture? Guess what the will equal?

I hope I am not being alarmist with all that.

The issue I see with your issues is,,, you know what your doing with the PV, you are basically doing all the right stuff already, you even have stailjim...... stail haha.. What ever your issue is, I don't think it is as easy as just swapping out mufflers, air clearner etc. The PV is pretty complex, and what it accels at is, just that, slap on a new muffler/pipe, and if you know what you doing (you do) you run data runs until you get her dialed in. Yeah everybody likes to start with a close map from DJ or FM, but again if you know what you are doing with a PV you don't even need that if, again, you know what you are doing and methodically follow the process of tuning. I am confident that I could take an almost unride-able tune, run 3 data runs and make large adjustments to the both spark and VE at the same time, get it to a rideable state and then focus on VE's dial them in, then focus on spark. From all you have posted it sounds as if you could do the same.

One other thing, if you had loose O2's or airleaks, I think the PV would actually trying to richen up your VE's,,, I am not certain on that, but it makes sense in my head.

 

Double post

 

Hey man, thanks for taking the time to think about this issue. I am starting to get worried that there is a serious issue with the front cylinder, mechanically, and i'm not sure that the dealer will cover it under warranty given all the work I've done. But first, on to what I learned today...


First off, I have been using log tuner on my recent test runs to locate the trouble areas and environmental conditions that lead to the knock events. The log files can be opened with MS Excel and I find it pretty easy to read the data just in spreadsheet format. I haven't done an AT session for a few weeks because I don't think doing more of them will solve the problem

So today I decided to forget about my AT runs and copied the VE tables from the tune Jaime(FM) sent me. Then I loaded up the original factory spark tables. Then I set my AFR table to a 13.8 cruise, open loop table, and took her out....and for the most part it worked! I rode pretty hard in almost 100 degree temps and only got 4 very light knocks in the front cylinder detected by the PV in about 20 miles of riding. So this was good and bad, because while I may have gotten it to run better, it also means that the autotune sessions are indeed making my VE tables way too lean...so why is that? Maybe the oil problem you mentioned?

So after running the open loop table til I was satisfied, I loaded up a closed loop AFR tune as a test. Still on the rich side, the cruise areas were set to 14.4. I changed nothing but the AFR table! Then headed out....in the span of about 5 miles I had 20 front cylinder knocks and 6 in the rear. ALL I changed was the AFR table from a 13.8 open loop to 14.4 closed loop, and only in the middle cruise areas. The rest of the table was still rich open loop. What the hell?! So basically now I can only run an open loop AFR if I want to avoid knocks. I loaded the open loop tune back up and rode home just fine with no knocks.

Back in the garage. While the engine was still warm I thought it might be a good idea to do a compression test. The results are concerning. 125psi front, 145psi rear. The service manual says 125 is the minimum and there should be no more than a 10% difference between the two. Obviously an engine with 7500 miles should not have a cylinder at minimums and have such a disparity between the two. I think at this point I need to get a good look inside with a borescope because I can barely see the piston tops with a flashlight through the plug holes. What I can see though is cracked, rocky carbon on the piston tops and no aluminum at all.

However the new plugs I installed last week look shockingly good now. Nice dry slightly brown insulator and no buildup so far. I think if the problem was burning oil, the plugs would have the telltale wet black look. I did just do a really heavy seafoaming though. But even the old plugs I just took out after a year and a half were completely dry and white from heat. Not black, wet or carbony.

So there ya have it. I'm gonna keep running the open loop AFR and my current settings for now, even though my mpg is going to suffer. Another thing I keep thinking about is that this is only a problem in the summer when it's really hot like it is now. When ambient temps drop 20 degrees I have no problems. It makes me wonder how many Harleys are on the roads here knocking constantly without their owners even being aware of it. I think mine had been doing it for a while but then a couple months ago I put the closed end back on my Supertrapp which made it quieter, and that was when I heard the first ticks.

 

Basically after a base run with my current tune, he loaded my FM base map that I adjusted with auto tune. I pulled timing out of my current tune to stop the pinging, and I ended up pulling way too much.(I knew this but I was chasing my tail) So the FM base map with the auto tune adjusted VE tables had a FM's timing with only a minor correction done for me by Jamie. What John at Dyno Solutions did was adjust my VE's. I never could have done this. First off John knows his sheet! Secondly with the dyno it shows where I was rich and where I was lean. John used the dyno and his know how and brought it all in. The improvement is dramatic. I'm so glad I'm a quitter and brought my bike to a professional. I guess I can tweak the tune in the future, but I have no such plans.
So the pinging was coming from the lean condition or it was in my head......or maybe a little of each.

If you are looking for a dyno professional. Check out http://www.dyno-solutions.com you can't go wrong with John. He is in Brookfield CT.