I've tried it both ways. My open loop tune was set to 14.0 in those areas that are 14.4. The only difference I found was a hit to my mpg; and, psychologically I like my mpg above 30. These trikes are pigs on the highway. Other reasons are: I don't have a problem with engine temps, and I like the idea of the engine getting only the fuel it needs. With the variations in fuel these days and the capabilities of the newer ECMs and Lambda to make up for these variances I feel more comfortable. My type of riding here in New Hampshire can take me from the seacoast to the mountains in less than an hour which I'm sure enters into the picture somehow. If my bike was dyno tuned then I'd probably feel more comfortable with open loop. But with these tuners you set an absolute VE, then an absolute AFR, and it will deliver that absolute amount whether the engine needs it or not. (at least that is my understanding). Seems to me you have to be spot on with the tune.

Others opinions will differ and that's alright too.

 

Still waiting on your long list of problems. If you make claims like that it just makes sense to list them so everyone else can discuss them. Has nothing to do with talking about things like adults. This is a forum for everyone to learn and discuss things. Saying you have a long list of problems with the device sounds like a cop out for things you simply don't understand, or think you do understand and maybe don't. If you have issues then just say it. List them and tell folks why. No "opinions". Bring the facts to the table. Another option would be to just cease participating. It's obvious you're not happy with your results thus far. Most obtain pretty favorable results, if they ask questions and are willing to learn. Nobody ever said learning this stuff was easy. It takes time, it takes alot of effort, and it takes commitment to learning. You, on the other hand, seem to want a 2 hour, professional, high performance, 100% tune, without taking the bike to a pro. It isn't going to happen...period.

 

Yes, you look pretty lean. Here is what I usually use. The small area of closed loop is the cruise area. I do that for long trips for improved mileage. Just did a 3500 mi., 2 up and loaded week, and averaged 41 mpg.Normally I set that area at 14.2 also. Give yours a little fuel and I think it will be happier. Also realize there are transition areas between those cells. What's next to one will affect others.

 

Every bike is different but you sound like you are like the rest of us. Here's my front cyl after using the Log Tuner. I think it took me 6 runs at it until there were no more changes being made.

 

You're pretty much right on. If everything on the bikes sensing system is doing it's job then the end result should be what you're looking for. The key principle being everything is functioning correctly. I can understand getting every last MPG out of a trike. My thoughts are, if it runs good, isn't scorching you, isn't pinging...you're probably good to go. Below 30 MPG would definitely suck lol. One thing you said kinda stuck out though. How long do the AFV's take to start making changes? I was under the impression it was a tank or two for any substantial changes to happen. Would changing environmental factors in 60 miles really make a difference? Down here, we don't see much in changes, other than the outrageous heat.

 

You CLEARLY ( again i might add ) did not pay attention. You might want to go back and read previous post or stop participating.

My bike runs fine. i didnt do it your way. So i guess im wrong. i am starting to think you work for dynojet and if some one says its not perfect you get all mad. Its all good. i am willing to TRY to answer a question for someone here or point them to the answer if i know how. You on the other hand are arrogant and tell them go read. thats not what this is supose to be in my opnion. and yes this forum is full of opnion. i have stated facts to you in many previous posts all the way back to issues about narrow band sensors getting data above 80kpa ( if you go back and READ ) you said they wont. so get your facts straight. I even double checked with both fuelmoto and dynojet. remember this conversation?

So my question for anyone that has an opnion....if using AT for spark and it retards timing 4 degs right off the bat.....how is that a good thing? This is why i call it a boo boo. If they had done it like log tuner and just allowed you to use the spark function with the table you have i think this feature in AT would have been great.

 

If you were running closed loop your statements are right on. But, when running open loop, with the "environmental factors" there will be no adjustments made. Whack the throttle going through a twistie while going up a 30* incline while downshifting and you will still get whatever AFR you set for whatever VE has been programmed. In closed loop if the motor needs 107% of the fuel required, it will get it. I think my understanding is correct on this principle. If this is the case, wouldn't closed loop be more forgiving for us part time tinkerers?

As far as AFV making changes, doesn't that begin immediately? It's only after the passage of time and miles that the changes slow down as averages catch up with themselves.

Found an interesting explanation on what is meant by an ECM Learning to Adapt by Mr. Wizard on HDForums:

A pretend scenario.....

Let's say you have Lean Factory Calibration XYZ. It has a lean number scale that goes like.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10

It goes to 10 because it is a minimal calibration file built for satisfying the EPA..

Now, let's replace the air cleaner..

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11

It goes to 11 because you are now sucking in more air. The ECM will see this and adjust back to 10 over several riding periods (about 3 or so tanks of gas but it also depends on how many times you turn the bike on and off)

So now we will say we have for many weeks and have turn the bike on and off many times so the adaptive learning can be written as an overlay to the Factory Calibration. We now find ourselves back to 10

Now we want to install free flowing slip on mufflers. Not too loud, not too soft so our scale will look like this..

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12

Again we go riding for several weeks and let the ECM adjust. Well, the ECM can only adjust so far, about 5 to 7%. We will call it 10% for our scenario. So where are we on our scale? We installed an AC and got back to 10, we installed a set of slip on's and we now are at 11. So we are at 11, leaner than the Factory Lean Calibration.

Last we will remove the cat device from the Touring head pipe... see where i'm goiing with this, yes? The cat device is close to having a potato stuffed up your tail pipe so we are going to give it a factor of 2.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14

Again the ECM will only adapt so far but we are all the way to 14! Crazy lean, popping at decel, throttle stumbling and the heat is crazy hot.

Now comes a tuning device. We check how lean we really are, adjust the air and fuel values to bring us back to 10... no, wait.. we can do better than that. We bring the line scale down to 9 then to 8 then 7 and we find ourselves with the 3 mods we wanted and room for more, more throttle response, less throttle under load which saves gas and more efficient so it runs cooler.

Any way... don't know who is telling you will be OK... but the ECM will not adjust to everything. It will adjust to an AC change or a muffler change but it will not adjust to removing the cat with an AC change or a muffler change with cat removal. There's is just too much change to be adjusted.

At my "real" job I am a mentor and trainer. Guess that helps me break things down so if the above was helpful then you are very welcome. There is something else I should explain though..

The ECM, how does it adjust?

With a bike that uses 02 sensors the ECM sees what is going on with your motor. This is called Closed Loop. Older bikes that don't have 02 sensors are in "Open Loop". There is no feedback to the ECM in Open Loop, just Closed Loop so...

As you ride the feedback from several sources on the bike are shaking hands with the bikes computer (ECM or ECU.. depends on what planet you are on) in Closed Loop. When we shake hands we communicate information. The computer understands the language and writes all this information down and saves it even after you turn off your bike.

When you turn your bike on this information is given to the computer which overlays the factory calibration in the computer... thus, adjusting the factory calibration. (read here.. wait for the engine light to go out before cranking) These overlays can't be viewed or recorded. They are in a holding area in the bike computer, used by the computer for the operation of your bike and the modifications. Let's call is the Computers Memory.

Think of it like this. You are an author. You are writing a book. You have Chapter One written and you are on your way. As you think (ride) and continue your story in your mind (memory) you are writing Chapter Two. All that remains is to type the new chapter. When you start the bike again Chapter Two is typed and added to your book (book being the ECM Factory Calibration) within milliseconds. This process is called Adaptive Learning Value or ALV.

Now, let's say you have ridden for several weeks and have started your bike many times. Now you have Writers Block and the next chapter just doesn't come. That's because the ECM can't adjust to your new information anymore and it can't write anymore chapters. You are shaking hands but now speaking a different language that can't be understood by the computer. You need an Interpreter or Consultant and/or Publisher to assist you.

Your assistant is the Tuner product and Dyno Operator. This combination of assistance will start reading Chapter One and will tell you to rewrite it so you can make more sense of your thought train and be able to write more chapters that actually carry a story. This will allow you to understand the new language and continue on with your book chapter after chapter until your book is complete.

OK, last comment. You have additional features of the ECM in Closed Loop. There is still communication when you are in higher altitudes, find a bad tank of gas and so forth. The ECM will continue to communicate and see what is going on and adjust to the conditions at hand. These new chapters will be over written once you come down off the mountain or pump fresh gas to your tank.

It is the same with the AKR or Adaptive Knock Retard (an additional feature in Open and Closed Loop). If your bike pings (knocks) under heavy load also due to bad gas or other your ECM will remember this and retard your timing so you do not harm the motor and writes this to the computers memory. The biggest difference is each time you turn your bike back on these AKR values are decreased until the point they are gone. Now you are back to your original book and cruising happily along.

 

If 4 degrees being pulled is your only problem you worry too much. Your earlier post said something about the list of problems can't even begin. Is there really a long list? Or were you just frustrated with poor results? Now, if you're willing to learn there just may be an answer. Possible? Taking 4 degrees out is a safety buffer for someone that buys the unit off the shelf, goes out to play Johnny Tuner with NO knowledge, overheats his engine, rev's the snot out of it, thinking he's tuning his bike. I could take 4 degrees out of your tune, not tell you, and you wouldn't notice squat. So, why are you worried about 4 degrees? Timing is an art, not something you can read on a forum as a rookie, and get it right. As far as LT goes, that isn't a guarantee either. All LT does is take out, what IT (algorithm) thinks is enough to JUST STOP the knock. Does it mean that's what the bike wants and will run smooth and at the best temperature? Nope. So, your wisdom of LT being the saving grace is not correct either. These are simply tools. If you're swinging a hammer and keep bending nails it's not the hammers fault. Take the time to learn how to use the tool and it will become your friend. If someone follows the basic steps they can get a decent tune. On the other hand, interpreting what a datalog is REALLY saying, takes time and commitment to learn. As I've said before, and will continue to say, most are better off playing it safe until they take the time to really commit themself to learning. if they do that there's alot of interesting things to learn. There are NO short cuts. So, is there really a list of problems? Or, is it something you don't understand that someone can help you with?

 

AFV's are long term trims. The Integrators are always rolling which handles the short term trims. Both, the way I understand them, are moving targets. It just takes longer for the AFV's to set in. reflash and then go out and datalog. You wont see any AFF changes in the datalog right away. However, you will see the CLI's changing right away when in closed loop. All the CLI's (short term trims) are doing is showing you is that the ECM read the signal from the 02's and made changes to keep it swinging from rich to lean to rich to lean. That's it's way to keep the AFR in the area of what has been set as the desired AFR. If the VE's are off enough the AFV's will eventually correct and take over. The less we have in the AFV's the better the bike will run. the above example is true, but at an extreme. if all those scenarios happened the AFV's wouldn't make the changes. Yes, bike would run lean, and terrible. The short term trims are pretty obvious but the AFV's seem to be a big secret. When and where they set is something none of the gurus want us to know. If someone runs an open loop tune, which ran great for years before the EPA got involved, the 02's aren't a player. A good dyno tune took care of business. Now we have 02's and constant sampling. There's definitley something to be said about the advantages of closed loop but it still needs a verified sniff test to make run right. If not, the AFV's can mess with a tune. It's like the old garbage in garbage out theory. If the VE's aren't right, or major airflow changes are done, the system will never be able to compensate. In your case, where you change environmental factors pretty quickly, it would be interesting to see what the CLI's are doing short term. I'm not questioning your tune. i just think it would be neat to see the differences in if/how much the CLI's add and subtract fuel as you roll through the mountains.

 

We are in agreement, just state it differently. CLI and AFF are 4 of the values I monitor. Because I took my time with the VEs the changes really aren't that drastic as the tune settles in. CLI is extremely busy probably for the first 50 miles or so, AFF less so, for the reasons you stated - short term and long term. Where I was noticing the most change was in the idle area. I found it to be a great tool for identifying weak areas in my AT methodology. Since concentrating on that area and getting it dialed in the changes aren't that busy. (Glad I didn't forget how to use the Log Tuner) CLI will always be active but as the miles accumulate you do notice them slowing down probably due to the AFF adjustments. The neat thing about observing the changes happening is you get to the point of you know why the numbers are the way they are.

I think the PV is a pretty powerful tuner when used in conjunction with the Log Tuner. Don't think I want to get off track with this discussion