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  #4861  
Old 06-30-2013 | 07:58 AM
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oldhippie
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Originally Posted by lhgdale
I got out for a little ride today and tried out the 13.9 AFR table. The bike seemed to run really well. My biggest concern is giving the bike to much fuel but it seems to be ok.
Keep an eye on the plugs. I actually can't tell much/any difference between the 13.9 tune and the 14.2 tune.

So I'm sticking with the 14.2 tune as it runs cool enough and still is employing closed loop mode.
 
  #4862  
Old 06-30-2013 | 09:17 AM
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Boston Chris
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Originally Posted by jclarktnkr
Hi Boston Chris,
I have done 10 AT's so far, each one is pushed a little farther to fill in as much of the cells as possible. The first 3-4 AT's were easy running with a high of ~20-25% throttle position and ~4000 max rpm's. Most of the VE's went richer ~5-10%.
Every tune after these (6-10) resulted in many cells running leaner than before and a number of them leaner than stock. Every thing over 60% throttle position went leaner than stock.

I am running stock narrow band O2 sensors that show no problems. I can change the CLB to a richer setting i.e.: ~14.4 ARF (786mv) and can tell they follow, engine runs richer in closed loop and shows no surging but I've read that it is not good to push the O2's like this and they are not really very accurate at this level.

Today I ran AT #9 & 10 and did a lot of roll on's to fill the chart as much as possible, hoping more data would help. It only made it worse. It even changed VE's outside the closed loop area (ie: wide open 80 & 100% TP) to a leaner VE setting!(~5%). Ouch.

I was surprised that the PV would change the last two columns (80 & 100% TP) since these columns are not set to 14.6 AFR that AT sets up and needs to acquire data.

I'm thinking of maybe running the Power Commander VE's (rich ~20% from stock) Harley's stock AFR's and Timing to see what happens. At least I would be starting off rich and the ARF's and Timing is safe.
Yes....mine did the same thing as you are describing. I tried to control all i could with conditions and so forth. I tried to only run AT when the weather was about the same as the last run and so on. My VE table had many cells that decreased. i was concerned about this so i emailed Fuelmoto. The email back says that drops in VE to 15% are not uncommomn. So i did not worry about it from that point on. i did not have a problem until the temps here in New England hit 90+deg. Got a little ping. So i would not be too worried about drops in the VE. I did end up making my A/F table an open loop tune. I aslo asked fuelmoto about the narrow band sensors. There was some back and forth on here questioning the data from them in the upper ranges on the rpm,s. Again the answer i got back was they get good data. So i asked the same question to dynojet. They also said it is good data but you can put your motor under stress running in a closed loop state at high rpms. I happen to agree with this train of thought. All in All my bike runs pretty goodeven though the VE decreased in areas. Im not sure you should worry about that. Seems to me over and over we hear the VE are going to adjust to what your heads want. As soon as i can recreate the conditions i had some ping i will use the log and get that out.

I would start with what ever map has the more rich A/F table. And im just curious....is there a differance in the timing tables between the 2 maps you have? My wifes sportty is a carb so i cant help you out much. If it was a efi bike i might have had a different map to send you to try.
 
  #4863  
Old 06-30-2013 | 12:39 PM
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gargoyle13
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Hi Boston Chris,

Yes there is a difference in the Timing Tables.

I have noticed that there is quite a difference in all the Tables, VE, AFR, and Timing to the point that it is hard to even get a general pattern in some of them.

I can understand the differences in the VE tables but the AFR Tables are all over the place, and the Timing tables aren't as bad, just too many Tuners trying to bump the timing too high just to gain so little as so it appears.

A few posts back I tried to get everyone to post their Tables (VE, AFR, Timing) before and after tuning along with all the important data such as: Bike, Model, Year, Mods. But so far no replies. I thought it would be a great help to people who are just starting to learn how to tune. No real 'Trade Secrets' would be lost since all these tables are just starting points in many cases.

It was mentioned in another thread that since DynoJet only has imported Power Commander Maps for the Sportster that this would create a real opportunity for someone to come up with some non-converted Maps that would no doubt work much better.

DJ should come up with these themselves, it would surely get a lot more people interested in getting a PV for their Sportsters, especially stock ones as mine. If I'm having problems with Heat, Surging and Factory Lean conditions, then surely a lot of other Sportster owners are in the same bucket and would probably like to also solve them. I believe FuelMoto has a Stock Improved Map for Sportsters but I haven't seen it or know any of the details of it.

As of today I'm started running DynoJets Imported Power Commander Open Loop 'Stock Improved Tune'. Does not run bad, just leaves a lot of stuff turned off, really was not made for the Power Vision.

Oh well, I'll keep after it.
 
  #4864  
Old 06-30-2013 | 01:10 PM
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RJHD
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So, I've run four or five auto tunes and each time, I've always built on the previous tune. Is this the correct procedure? I've noticed when setting up to do a session, and loading the last tune, the PV screen looks as if I'm starting from scratch. No blocks are filled at all.

Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?

I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.

On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.

Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
 
  #4865  
Old 06-30-2013 | 04:10 PM
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oldhippie
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Originally Posted by RJHD
So, I've run four or five auto tunes and each time, I've always built on the previous tune. Is this the correct procedure? I've noticed when setting up to do a session, and loading the last tune, the PV screen looks as if I'm starting from scratch. No blocks are filled at all.

Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?

I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.

On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.

Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
RJHD, you don't say what you are running for a bike or mods so it is a very general statement to say "yes, your doing it right.. and also yes those temps are normal." But I would definitely want them to be lower.

What are you running for a bike and mods?
 
  #4866  
Old 06-30-2013 | 04:43 PM
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RJHD
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Originally Posted by oldhippie
RJHD, you don't say what you are running for a bike or mods so it is a very general statement to say "yes, your doing it right.. and also yes those temps are normal." But I would definitely want them to be lower.

What are you running for a bike and mods?
Oops, sorry.

Have a 2012 Fatbob. 103 with Rush 2.0 slip ons and a screamin eagle heavy breather a/c.
 
  #4867  
Old 06-30-2013 | 05:20 PM
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cbrown@woods.net
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Yes, when using the onboard AT you start AT with a tune, run until good fill, export and then re-start with the new tune. Data collection restarts because you are now running with the adjusted VEs and logging differances against the new VEs.

There is a limit on how far the system can compensate for an inaccurate VE, and the larger the delta the less accurate the result.

So, first time round maybe you get alot of up 10 - 20 % changes, second time round (for any particular cell) under 10% ...

In later runs (after your have hit all the cells you reasonable can in multiple runs) you may want to do an extended run... Just stay in AT mode ride after ride until you have say 80+ hits in every single cell you can hit.

2011 96" FLHTC (with hard lowers and oil cooler added) I see similar temps... 200 - 230 Hwy, up to about 270 traffic, unless the temp is 80+, then getting closer to 300. Datalogging in stop and go for extended periods prolly not the best idea, the very high intake temps can skew things.




Originally Posted by RJHD
So, I've run four or five auto tunes and each time, I've always built on the previous tune. Is this the correct procedure? I've noticed when setting up to do a session, and loading the last tune, the PV screen looks as if I'm starting from scratch. No blocks are filled at all.

Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?

I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.

On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.

Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
 
  #4868  
Old 06-30-2013 | 05:27 PM
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PIGGI
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So, after doing 5-6 AT runs what kind of numbers are you seeing in the VE tables? I've seen some maps that showed 100-127 in the cruise range. Stock are high 80's to low 90's. What should I expect?
2012 trike w/103, K&N filter, stock mufflers, decatted.
 
  #4869  
Old 06-30-2013 | 05:33 PM
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lhgdale
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So, after doing 5-6 AT runs what kind of numbers are you seeing in the VE tables? I've seen some maps that showed 100-127 in the cruise range. Stock are high 80's to low 90's. What should I expect?
2012 trike w/103, K&N filter, stock mufflers, decatted.
Since adding cams I have actually seen my VE's go down a good bit compared to the tune I had before cams. I'm no expert but I figure the engine will put the #'s where they need to be. I'm down to a -0% average change and a 7% max on my last auto tune. I'm working with the AFR tables now.
 
  #4870  
Old 06-30-2013 | 05:37 PM
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PIGGI
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From: Sahuarita, Arizona
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Originally Posted by lhgdale
Since adding cams I have actually seen my VE's go down a good bit compared to the tune I had before cams. I'm no expert but I figure the engine will put the #'s where they need to be. I'm down to a -0% average change and a 7% max on my last auto tune. I'm working with the AFR tables now.
OK, but what are the actual numbers?
 


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