Power Vision Information Thread
#4391
Hey guys, so now I am learning how to AutoTune using AT-Basic and I have successfully run two AutoTunes against the FM supplied tune for my Stage 1 07 Electraglide. She is running really good.
So I have a couple questions regarding documentation of using WinPV and Datalogging. I see that my ATs have generated .PVV logs, but I don't know how to get .CSV files or whatever I need to review them. Or do I use WinPV?
Any pointers to user documentation?
So I have a couple questions regarding documentation of using WinPV and Datalogging. I see that my ATs have generated .PVV logs, but I don't know how to get .CSV files or whatever I need to review them. Or do I use WinPV?
Any pointers to user documentation?
#4392
I'm new to PV and to tuning. I have messed around with autotune and can see that it appears to only be altering the VE tables. The AFR table stays the same.
So the way I see it, autotune just a fine tuning tool. If your base tune (AFR table, spark advance table) is not correct for your specification (cams, exhaust, intake) then you are just auto tuning a bad tune which isn't going to replace a good base tune to start with. Correct?
I haven't read all 440 pages, but it seems some people are suggesting that you can start with any tune and if you run autotune enough times it will fix it and you will end up with a good result.
So the way I see it, autotune just a fine tuning tool. If your base tune (AFR table, spark advance table) is not correct for your specification (cams, exhaust, intake) then you are just auto tuning a bad tune which isn't going to replace a good base tune to start with. Correct?
I haven't read all 440 pages, but it seems some people are suggesting that you can start with any tune and if you run autotune enough times it will fix it and you will end up with a good result.
#4394
Hey guys, so now I am learning how to AutoTune using AT-Basic and I have successfully run two AutoTunes against the FM supplied tune for my Stage 1 07 Electraglide. She is running really good.
So I have a couple questions regarding documentation of using WinPV and Datalogging. I see that my ATs have generated .PVV logs, but I don't know how to get .CSV files or whatever I need to review them. Or do I use WinPV?
Any pointers to user documentation?
So I have a couple questions regarding documentation of using WinPV and Datalogging. I see that my ATs have generated .PVV logs, but I don't know how to get .CSV files or whatever I need to review them. Or do I use WinPV?
Any pointers to user documentation?
to view the saved logs you can use excel (thats what i use) or megalogviewer... havent really used it much but im told its a good tool
both those programs have a bit of a learning curve.
Last edited by goats; 05-18-2013 at 11:09 PM.
#4395
Thanks Sam.
I have done that. I should have worded the question better. I was hoping for a D/L file I could save to my compooter. (as opposed to a direct auto-install)
But I do have a few general questions..
I intend to use the Auto Tune function quite a bit. (frequent engine mods) Are there any tuning tutorials for manual editing of an existing (auto) tune out there? The Help files are good but they don't really go into 'If X is what you want, this is ideal the goal' type of advice. I would like educate myself before I make edits. (to the color mappped red portions for instance.)
I'm also a little fuzzy on why the MoCo went to narrow band sensors. Thinking about a new pipe for my '12 FB & I'm wondering if an '11 pipe (in combo with the Pro Auto tune Module) would be a better option. I can not find any Dyna exhaust that has both 12 & 15 mm sensor bungs. (I even called V&H & they refused to special build a pipe with both.)
Is having both significantly better than N/B or W/B only?
What does N/B do that W/B doesn't?
tia...
I have done that. I should have worded the question better. I was hoping for a D/L file I could save to my compooter. (as opposed to a direct auto-install)
But I do have a few general questions..
I intend to use the Auto Tune function quite a bit. (frequent engine mods) Are there any tuning tutorials for manual editing of an existing (auto) tune out there? The Help files are good but they don't really go into 'If X is what you want, this is ideal the goal' type of advice. I would like educate myself before I make edits. (to the color mappped red portions for instance.)
I'm also a little fuzzy on why the MoCo went to narrow band sensors. Thinking about a new pipe for my '12 FB & I'm wondering if an '11 pipe (in combo with the Pro Auto tune Module) would be a better option. I can not find any Dyna exhaust that has both 12 & 15 mm sensor bungs. (I even called V&H & they refused to special build a pipe with both.)
Is having both significantly better than N/B or W/B only?
What does N/B do that W/B doesn't?
tia...
i can answer some of this but you will need other people for the rest.
narrow band sensors, to the best of my knowledge, are the only ones harley has used, they have changes sizes (my 2011 softail uses 18mm and the newer bikes use 12mm).
narrow band is very accurate for measuring afr values at or near stoich ( 14.7) better/more accurate than wideband for this afr.
you can use a 2011 pipe with 18mm bungs on a 2012 bike, just need an adapter so the 12mm sensors fit in the 18mm bung.
having both installed will allow you to tune a wide range of afr values.... some people like to use open loop as opposed to closed loop
#4396
I'm new to PV and to tuning. I have messed around with autotune and can see that it appears to only be altering the VE tables. The AFR table stays the same.
So the way I see it, autotune just a fine tuning tool. If your base tune (AFR table, spark advance table) is not correct for your specification (cams, exhaust, intake) then you are just auto tuning a bad tune which isn't going to replace a good base tune to start with. Correct?
I haven't read all 440 pages, but it seems some people are suggesting that you can start with any tune and if you run autotune enough times it will fix it and you will end up with a good result.
So the way I see it, autotune just a fine tuning tool. If your base tune (AFR table, spark advance table) is not correct for your specification (cams, exhaust, intake) then you are just auto tuning a bad tune which isn't going to replace a good base tune to start with. Correct?
I haven't read all 440 pages, but it seems some people are suggesting that you can start with any tune and if you run autotune enough times it will fix it and you will end up with a good result.
without an accurate ve table it doesnt matter what afr you want to run, you simply wont get it.
Air Fuel Ratio
if your ecm thinks there is a certain amount of air it will add a specific amount of fuel to achieve the desired afr.
if there is less or more air than what the ecm is expecting the added fuel will not equal the desired afr.
for stock bikes or slightly modified (pipes, intake) the base map may be off but that just means doing more runs to get the ve table accurately mapped.
spark is a bit more involved and better left for someone else to explain. personally i only changed my spark tables a little cause of the amount of knock i was getting.... i may be getting close but i am not ready to fine tune my spark tables yet
Last edited by goats; 05-18-2013 at 11:13 PM.
#4397
looking at the logs i see there are no changes below 1000, tho there are more changes in the 1000 area than before so it seems it is not possible to tune below 1000 rpm.
i understand that i must be consistent with my tuning runs to see when i am getting minimal changes between runs. BUT...in reality i do not ride in a consistent manner.
sometimes i more or less cruise and sometimes i hammer on it, most of the time it is a combination of both. can we really tune for that? how does this affect those of us who may like to run open loop?
i understand that i must be consistent with my tuning runs to see when i am getting minimal changes between runs. BUT...in reality i do not ride in a consistent manner.
sometimes i more or less cruise and sometimes i hammer on it, most of the time it is a combination of both. can we really tune for that? how does this affect those of us who may like to run open loop?
AT letting PV make changes = no VE correction to 750 row.
Datalog tune using PV Log Tuner = change to 750 row / 0 column.
#4398
is there any way to see how many hits a given cell may have from looking at the data logs?
i often look at my csv logs after runs but i havent noticed a hit count, but to be honest i cant say i know what all the columns are.
i will pay more attention to what rpm range i am getting swings in.
i have never lowered the hit count on my pv settings but i have changed the max ve learn from 15 % to 20 % not sure if that could be an issue at all.
since my bike is running well i am wondering (assuming i have no intake or exhaust leaks, tho i should check them again) if it would be good to just keep running the same AT without exporting/disabling in an attempt to gather the max number of hits in every cell i have hit.... and yes there are times i manage to hit cells that are not easy to hit
edit: just to be clear i do know i can see the cells and hit counts on the data log screen.... just thought i would mention that so someone doesnt feel the need to tell me about it :-)
i often look at my csv logs after runs but i havent noticed a hit count, but to be honest i cant say i know what all the columns are.
i will pay more attention to what rpm range i am getting swings in.
i have never lowered the hit count on my pv settings but i have changed the max ve learn from 15 % to 20 % not sure if that could be an issue at all.
since my bike is running well i am wondering (assuming i have no intake or exhaust leaks, tho i should check them again) if it would be good to just keep running the same AT without exporting/disabling in an attempt to gather the max number of hits in every cell i have hit.... and yes there are times i manage to hit cells that are not easy to hit
edit: just to be clear i do know i can see the cells and hit counts on the data log screen.... just thought i would mention that so someone doesnt feel the need to tell me about it :-)
Here's a suggestion, right, wrong, good or bad. Go out for a 45 minute NORMAL ride. Then look at the datalog and see what is YOUR normal riding area. Take blue painters tape and make a box of that area then go out and max the crap out of that area. Do it 3 times and compare. After the 3rd run you should be around 3% or less. This won't be your final tune, but it's a way to see how your data in that area is affecting your tune. If you get, lets say 70+ hits on each run, and your tune is swinging, then you have something going on with the bike. If, after 3 runs of hitting 70+ in that bax and your tune stays within a couple % then you can rule out thebike. Operator error is the problem, or you're not reading the results correctly.
Another point to the above is this. When someone makes the first AT run it's not a bad idea to do a pretty mellow run. This helps in getting your VE's going in the right direction. Start out with a datalog run and use Log Tuner to build the new cal. PV Log Tuner will show you if you have any outrageous knock retard going with the starter cal. It's an extra step, but it gives someone a decent idea of how far off the starter cal really is. Ex: You see timing being oulled out in bucketloads, then one would be wise to make a correction before tuning.
As far as increasing how much correction you expect: I'm not a big fan of that approach, unless you're maxing out hits. It's like the geek saying of garbage in equals garbage out. I wouldn't trust letting the PV make a huge correction on limited hits. Yes, it will correct, but how valid is the big correction based on limited data. I'd rather make extra AT runs.
Last edited by stailjim61; 05-19-2013 at 02:29 PM.
#4399
You'll be good. If you need to make a checklist and put it on a 3 x 5 card, stick it in your pocket so you can reflash on the road, do it. You don't have to make a full AT run every time. If you go to the store or just bee bopping on a 15 minute ride, do an AT and reflash. Eventually it all comes together. But, on your last 2 runs I would do full blown runs.
#4400
Thanks Sam.
I have done that. I should have worded the question better. I was hoping for a D/L file I could save to my compooter. (as opposed to a direct auto-install)
But I do have a few general questions..
I intend to use the Auto Tune function quite a bit. (frequent engine mods) Are there any tuning tutorials for manual editing of an existing (auto) tune out there? The Help files are good but they don't really go into 'If X is what you want, this is ideal the goal' type of advice. I would like educate myself before I make edits. (to the color mappped red portions for instance.)
I'm also a little fuzzy on why the MoCo went to narrow band sensors. Thinking about a new pipe for my '12 FB & I'm wondering if an '11 pipe (in combo with the Pro Auto tune Module) would be a better option. I can not find any Dyna exhaust that has both 12 & 15 mm sensor bungs. (I even called V&H & they refused to special build a pipe with both.)
Is having both significantly better than N/B or W/B only?
What does N/B do that W/B doesn't?
tia...
I have done that. I should have worded the question better. I was hoping for a D/L file I could save to my compooter. (as opposed to a direct auto-install)
But I do have a few general questions..
I intend to use the Auto Tune function quite a bit. (frequent engine mods) Are there any tuning tutorials for manual editing of an existing (auto) tune out there? The Help files are good but they don't really go into 'If X is what you want, this is ideal the goal' type of advice. I would like educate myself before I make edits. (to the color mappped red portions for instance.)
I'm also a little fuzzy on why the MoCo went to narrow band sensors. Thinking about a new pipe for my '12 FB & I'm wondering if an '11 pipe (in combo with the Pro Auto tune Module) would be a better option. I can not find any Dyna exhaust that has both 12 & 15 mm sensor bungs. (I even called V&H & they refused to special build a pipe with both.)
Is having both significantly better than N/B or W/B only?
What does N/B do that W/B doesn't?
tia...
In a closed loop cal you're pretty much looking at best MPG and some heat. If one can deal with the heat there's nothing wrong with a closed loop cal. It's probably the way to fly if someone does alot of touring and stays moving.
If someone is a barhopper/day long ride mix, then a mixed loop cal may work better.
The other extreme is someone who does alot of city riding, romps on it light to light, hotrodding type of riding. Depending on the location, temps, I wouldn't run a closed loop cal. MPG probably isn't a big concern so I feel a richer mixture, all around is best. I know the die hard closed loop fans would chastise me for saying that, but it is what it is.
Basically, there's a time and a place for everything. How someone rides determines how they should set up their ca....AFTER the VE's are calibrated!!
I know....the VE lecture again....Sorry.