Power Vision Information Thread
#2941
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Ran my first autotune with the beta version yesterday. Thanks to Jamie at FuelMoto for sending me the beta and instructions. I had a pretty close map from Jamie already. Like the way it performed but had a slight decel popping I couldn't get rid of. Anyway I took that map and applied a 30 minute autotune run to it and flashed it to give it a try. I figured I would run it for a little while and pick out the problems I could detect, then autotune again until I got it where I wanted it. Well after the first 30 minute run and flash, I rode all afternoon and tried to find fault and just couldn't find anything I wanted to change. No more decel popping. Seemed to start a little easier when it was hot, mileage was still over 45 and the low end torque was even better than it was. I am not a racer and don't use a lot of high rpms but I love having better low end and this gave it to me. I may be finished for a while until I make another change. Thanks again to Jamie and FM.
#2942
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I hear you can have your VEs set in about two runs? I got my closed loop areas pretty good with the oem scensors but I think the open loop may be leaving somthing on the table because I cant read my afr raitios?
Ive done 12 retunes and it runs good but I feel the open loop areas could be a little lean. So I guess what Im asking is in order to get my open loop areas correct without a dyno do I need the wide band kit or will it get it with the oem scensors?
Be also advised that with the WB sensors you can't run closed-loop once your tune is done, that is unless you install both WB and NB sensors in your pipes. I've been running open-loop for the 18 months I've owned the PV and find that it keeps AFR's very close, within ±2% most of the time. For example, if it vacillates between .98-1.02 in open-loop or .99-1.01 in closed-loop, will you be able to feel any difference at all in performance or gas mileage? I think not. Remember that the MAP, ET, and IAT sensors work to keep the ECM informed on temperatures and barometric pressure, and I've found that it works very well. You can monitor AFR's (in Lambda) on your PV display, which I keep an eye on while riding.
I foresee one day when DJ will offer a special module that will allow using the WB sensors with the ECM for full closed-loop operation. I can't say for sure and don't know when this might happen, but I do think it is on the horizon. Will they sell the module without the WB sensors for those of us who already have them? I don't know, but would hope so. Remember, this can be done, as the EMS tuner does this now. The only drawback to the EMS is that you can't interface with the tuner at all, and what you get is what you get with no options.
Last edited by iclick; 08-19-2012 at 04:49 PM.
#2943
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The problem I'm having is I do not know how to interpret what what I'm looking at when I view the current tune in WinPV. I don't know if it has room for improvement, (I assume it does), or if it is a good tune or a bad tune. I'm just too new at this to begin making educated changes to the tune without some advise or guidance.
I haven't figured out how to post a visual of the tune, I can email the tune to someone if they'd like to take a look.
Your AFR table looks normal enough, and if tuned properly it will provide the AFRs specified. Based on what I see there you are running open-loop, which is fine, and you have no choice if you have only the WB sensors installed.
#2944
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How do you guys handle extreme outliers in the VE?
Here is what I am getting from my second AutoTune run:
That looks really small.. trying to post in the actual post (can't believe I haven't figured this out yet)... anyway, you can see the colors... huge jumps from 72 to 114 in adjacent cells.
I can't help but believe that some type of smoothing is necessary.
Here is what I am getting from my second AutoTune run:
That looks really small.. trying to post in the actual post (can't believe I haven't figured this out yet)... anyway, you can see the colors... huge jumps from 72 to 114 in adjacent cells.
I can't help but believe that some type of smoothing is necessary.
Smoothing might be in order, but you normally can't make that judgement by looking at the values alone. I can't read the values from that map, or at least most of them, but I don't see anything that looks grossly out of line in any area of the tune where you would normally ride. You can email it to me if you like and I'll take a closer look at it.
Last edited by iclick; 08-19-2012 at 05:41 PM.
#2945
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I am getting all kinds of weird quirks with this PV using the autotune. I dropped the closest MAP from FuelMoto, but my bike was hesitating really badly around 1800-2800... to the point I almost dropped it in a slow left turn last night. I tried to search this thread for answers, but with the thread being so long, it is hard to find clear responses.
Anyone have experience with finding hesitation? is it VE, AFR, or timing? or is it a mixture of all 3?
Anyway, if you install the FM tune and do some datalog runs you could likely locate the cause. Have you done that yet? You say it is between 1800-2800, which is a pretty broad range, so does it hesitate any time the bike is in this range or just sporadically? How much throttle are you applying when this happens?
If you want to diagnose this, do a datalog run and send your original FM tune and the log files to one of us. You'll have to use email outside this forum since they don't allow attachments other than image files.
#2946
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I haven't heard this before, and I've never gotten this impression from talking to FM or DJ. In fact, Jamie says they are durable and accurate, citing that Ford and GM both now use WB's in some of their models. The reason they aren't more commonly used is that they are much more expensive, and the automakers are only interested in controlling emissions up to EPA requirements, which the NB sensors apparently do in most cases. I'm not sure why they've gone to WB's in some models.
I agree that the open-loop range is fine if you have a tune that came from Fuel Moto, but if not or if you change your configuration (upgrade cams, etc.) you will need to recalibrate the open-loop range, and that's where the WB sensors come into play as an asset. Do you still have the AT module and WB sensors that you used with your PCV? If so, it will work with the PV if it is a single-piece module instead of the older two-piece units.
I agree that the open-loop range is fine if you have a tune that came from Fuel Moto, but if not or if you change your configuration (upgrade cams, etc.) you will need to recalibrate the open-loop range, and that's where the WB sensors come into play as an asset. Do you still have the AT module and WB sensors that you used with your PCV? If so, it will work with the PV if it is a single-piece module instead of the older two-piece units.
You are quite right..I have been a mechanic for almost 30yrs now, and yes.. some of the manufactures are going to wide band O/2... and they cost alot more than narrow band sensors.. some even over 200-300 each compared to under or around 100.00...we also use the wideband in our race car to tune them too... Len
Last edited by txlen; 08-19-2012 at 07:10 PM.
#2947
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OK my fellow autotuning gurus; I'm back from vacation and back into tuning mode. Today I decided to play with my spark tables. Min was set to 1, Max was set to 10. No spark knock hits. Also saved a log to see what was happening. I had some knock, no more than 2.5*. Why didn't autotune see it? Also, when the pvv file is created for this autotune run, is the spark automatically retarded 4* like it is for VE runs?
On another note, if AE is disabled for tuning runs, why do I occasionally see VE on my green screen? Anyone else notice this?
More play time tomorrow, then the trike goes in Monday for warranty work.
Don
On another note, if AE is disabled for tuning runs, why do I occasionally see VE on my green screen? Anyone else notice this?
More play time tomorrow, then the trike goes in Monday for warranty work.
Don
#2950
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Be also advised that with the WB sensors you can't run closed-loop once your tune is done, that is unless you install both WB and NB sensors in your pipes. I've been running open-loop for the 18 months I've owned the PV and find that it keeps AFR's very close, within ±2% most of the time. For example, if it vacillates between .98-1.02 in open-loop or .99-1.01 in closed-loop, will you be able to feel any difference at all in performance or gas mileage? I think not. Remember that the MAP, ET, and IAT sensors work to keep the ECM informed on temperatures and barometric pressure, and I've found that it works very well. You can monitor AFR's (in Lambda) on your PV display, which I keep an eye on while riding.
I thought you only used the wide band kit to get your open loop VEs set then remove it and run the oems sensors for your closed loop areas. Im I missing somthing?
Thanks...
I thought you only used the wide band kit to get your open loop VEs set then remove it and run the oems sensors for your closed loop areas. Im I missing somthing?
Thanks...