Power Vision Information Thread
#2171
04-07-2012 | 11:50 AM
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
My approach to adding (or deleting) VE is based on a starting map that is running well and designed for that bike. Whether it came with the tuning software or was a custom tune developed on dyno.
I move VEs for 1 of 2 reasons that may be somewhat unique to my situation. I have a higher performance engine than most that was tuned on a dyno and has a completely open loop map.
My purpose in doing any additional tuning with the PV was to develop maps for different purposes and situations. The first additional map I wanted saved on the PV was an "Economy" map. While my open loop performance map runs outstanding, it only gets around 30-31mpg. 30-31 is OK from my perspective for short daytime rides but getting only 180 range from a 6 gal tank doesn't it cut it for the longer trips I take.
So I took my performance map and moved the Lambda to .980 from 0-60 KPa and from 750 to 3000 rpms. This puts this section of the map into closed loop which will allow me to adjust my performance map VEs to the new Lambda (leaner). By letting the tuner make the adjustments I ensure a smoother throttle response than just lowering the VEs independently. I only made the VE changes in the range of 1750-3000. I ignored the recommend changes below 1750 since they will have little impact on my overall fuel economy. These lower cells provide for parking lot maneurability, start up and general acceleration from a stop but otherwise have no impact on fuel mileage.
I also made no changes to the 10KPa column even between 1750 & 3000 since this column is primarily for deceleration and adjusting it can result in decel pop. Since I didn't have any to start with I didn't want to screw with this column.
So essentially, I have now have a map with lower VEs from 20-60KPa and from 1750-3000rpms. Since this is the primary cruise range I figured I would get better fuel economy from this map. Sure enough, my fuel economy jumped from 30-31mpg with the performance map to 40-41mpg. My tank range with the performance map is 180miles and my new Economy map gets close to 250miles. How cool is that?
Performance is only slightly less with the Economy map and only in that small range of the map.
The other adjustment I've made starting with my performance map was based on my tuner's recommendation. He told me that my final map has a VERY conservative spark table for the build and flow of the heads. He suggested I might find even more power with a little experimentation. Since I had the PV I figured I would try.
His suggestion goes as follows:
With my current dyno tuned map, raise the displacement of the engine by 2 cubic inches. My starting map was already at 112.5 so I moved it to 114.5ci.
Step 2 was to advance the spark in both cylinders across the entire map by 3 degrees EXCEPT the 100KPa column and the upper left corner (750-1500rpm and 0-50KPa). Essentially the spark advance should remain unchanged in the idle and start area and should not be raised above 30 in the 100KPa column. Remember to do both cylinders.
Step 3, take it for a ride with the knock sensor on and see if there's any knock and if the performance is stronger.
I can definitely tell you that the performance was without question even stronger than his original dyno-tuner map. Much more agressive. And I had very little additional knock from the sensor and nothing that could be heard.. I raised the VE in those cells that showed knock and most of it went away.
The tuner suggested I try advancing another 3 degrees with the same caveats above until I saw knock in the table or heard knock and then dial back 3 degrees.
Sorry for the long post but for those looking to experiment, I figured my experience might be helpful. I really find the PV to be an outstanding tool for getting the most performance and smoothest running engine possible. Since I can accomplishment most of this improvement while riding, I figure its far better than lost miles on a dyno. I couldn't be happier with the PV although I hope more improvements are coming (like being able to turn the knock sensor OFF/ON for a particular map directly from the PV.)
I move VEs for 1 of 2 reasons that may be somewhat unique to my situation. I have a higher performance engine than most that was tuned on a dyno and has a completely open loop map.
My purpose in doing any additional tuning with the PV was to develop maps for different purposes and situations. The first additional map I wanted saved on the PV was an "Economy" map. While my open loop performance map runs outstanding, it only gets around 30-31mpg. 30-31 is OK from my perspective for short daytime rides but getting only 180 range from a 6 gal tank doesn't it cut it for the longer trips I take.
So I took my performance map and moved the Lambda to .980 from 0-60 KPa and from 750 to 3000 rpms. This puts this section of the map into closed loop which will allow me to adjust my performance map VEs to the new Lambda (leaner). By letting the tuner make the adjustments I ensure a smoother throttle response than just lowering the VEs independently. I only made the VE changes in the range of 1750-3000. I ignored the recommend changes below 1750 since they will have little impact on my overall fuel economy. These lower cells provide for parking lot maneurability, start up and general acceleration from a stop but otherwise have no impact on fuel mileage.
I also made no changes to the 10KPa column even between 1750 & 3000 since this column is primarily for deceleration and adjusting it can result in decel pop. Since I didn't have any to start with I didn't want to screw with this column.
So essentially, I have now have a map with lower VEs from 20-60KPa and from 1750-3000rpms. Since this is the primary cruise range I figured I would get better fuel economy from this map. Sure enough, my fuel economy jumped from 30-31mpg with the performance map to 40-41mpg. My tank range with the performance map is 180miles and my new Economy map gets close to 250miles. How cool is that?
Performance is only slightly less with the Economy map and only in that small range of the map.
The other adjustment I've made starting with my performance map was based on my tuner's recommendation. He told me that my final map has a VERY conservative spark table for the build and flow of the heads. He suggested I might find even more power with a little experimentation. Since I had the PV I figured I would try.
His suggestion goes as follows:
With my current dyno tuned map, raise the displacement of the engine by 2 cubic inches. My starting map was already at 112.5 so I moved it to 114.5ci.
Step 2 was to advance the spark in both cylinders across the entire map by 3 degrees EXCEPT the 100KPa column and the upper left corner (750-1500rpm and 0-50KPa). Essentially the spark advance should remain unchanged in the idle and start area and should not be raised above 30 in the 100KPa column. Remember to do both cylinders.
Step 3, take it for a ride with the knock sensor on and see if there's any knock and if the performance is stronger.
I can definitely tell you that the performance was without question even stronger than his original dyno-tuner map. Much more agressive. And I had very little additional knock from the sensor and nothing that could be heard.. I raised the VE in those cells that showed knock and most of it went away.
The tuner suggested I try advancing another 3 degrees with the same caveats above until I saw knock in the table or heard knock and then dial back 3 degrees.
- Now I have my open loop base map for performance from my dyno tune.
- A Closed Loop map with much better fuel economy (This map also has spark advanced by 3 degrees over the base map)
- And an even higher performance map with 6 degrees of advanced spark over the base map. This map is also Open loop and gets about the same fuel economy as the Base map.
Sorry for the long post but for those looking to experiment, I figured my experience might be helpful. I really find the PV to be an outstanding tool for getting the most performance and smoothest running engine possible. Since I can accomplishment most of this improvement while riding, I figure its far better than lost miles on a dyno. I couldn't be happier with the PV although I hope more improvements are coming (like being able to turn the knock sensor OFF/ON for a particular map directly from the PV.)
#2172
04-07-2012 | 12:17 PM
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
From: Berkeley, CA
Agreed...good write up, Heatwave. Realizing that your build is different, I'd still like to see your spark table, and those of others, too. I'd like to see how different they can be and in which areas. I've advanced 4* and am still not getting knock events. Got some cells at 48* and am wondering where the limit might be. I've heard an old racing adage..."It was runnin' great right before it blew up". I don't want to go there...
Last edited by hboat; 04-07-2012 at 12:57 PM.
#2173
04-07-2012 | 04:01 PM
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 472
Likes: 1
From: Hutchinson, Ks.
If I was to turn all the 14.5's to 14.6's simply to get my ve tables right would it be necessary to pull timing? And if I want to do the rest of the higher rpm and kpa regions that are set richer do I just pull 4 degrees across those ranges, or do I have to pull it from the whole map?
I understand pulling timing for high rpm and kpa, but I guess I dont see the point in pulling timing just for .1 afr changes. Ive read dennis' writeup and a few others but nobody really points out where exactly to retard timing at. The whole map, or just the richer set high rpm and kpa ranges? Thanx for all the help fellas.
I understand pulling timing for high rpm and kpa, but I guess I dont see the point in pulling timing just for .1 afr changes. Ive read dennis' writeup and a few others but nobody really points out where exactly to retard timing at. The whole map, or just the richer set high rpm and kpa ranges? Thanx for all the help fellas.
#2174
04-07-2012 | 05:42 PM
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 871
Likes: 6
From: Manchester, NH
Well I took my maiden voyage with the PV this afternoon, not to datalog anything, but rather to observe some of the items we can play with on this great tool. The 2 items I was most concerned with were the CLI F&R and Engine Temp. I still have the cat in the head pipe so I guess that is responsible for a temp of 243 on a day in the low 50s. At least the EITMS didn't activate like it has before. As soon as Fuel Moto ships the Jackpot header my way I'm sure the temps will go down a bit more.
Surprisingly the CLI were in the 3% range when driving around. Once or twice maybe a one time hit of 7% when getting off the throttle quickly. Overall impression - I like this thing. More get up and go (bike has just under 500 miles), smoother, sounding good, and definate improvement in gas mileage.
Now another question: With the TTS & SERT, you had the option of changing the file name of the tune that would be displayed from the ECM when a dealer read it with their gauge or scan tool. When we load a file to the ECM with the PV does the name of the file change on the ECM. I guess I want to know if the dealer will be able to tell that I have changed the factory approved tune with a non SE/HD program.
Surprisingly the CLI were in the 3% range when driving around. Once or twice maybe a one time hit of 7% when getting off the throttle quickly. Overall impression - I like this thing. More get up and go (bike has just under 500 miles), smoother, sounding good, and definate improvement in gas mileage.
Now another question: With the TTS & SERT, you had the option of changing the file name of the tune that would be displayed from the ECM when a dealer read it with their gauge or scan tool. When we load a file to the ECM with the PV does the name of the file change on the ECM. I guess I want to know if the dealer will be able to tell that I have changed the factory approved tune with a non SE/HD program.
#2175
04-07-2012 | 07:39 PM
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Agreed...good write up, Heatwave. Realizing that your build is different, I'd still like to see your spark table, and those of others, too. I'd like to see how different they can be and in which areas. I've advanced 4* and am still not getting knock events. Got some cells at 48* and am wondering where the limit might be. I've heard an old racing adage..."It was runnin' great right before it blew up". I don't want to go there...
Here's my front cylinder spark tables.
Base Map -very nice running map
+5 spark table - runs great
+8 spark table - runs like a scalded dog
#2178
04-08-2012 | 09:27 AM
Thread Starter
|
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 48
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Thats a lot of adjustment, so do some datalog runs with plenty of roll-ons and make sure you aren't getting any spark-retard events. If not, go for it. When I had my stock cams and a FM Stage 1 installed I couldn't bump advance at all using 93-octane gas (E0). Now with the SE255 cams I can go +3° in the cruise range, and +5 gives audible detonation. I haven't tried adjusting spark since getting the PV and probably should run more tests to get it as high as possible, but I want a buffer that will allow me to travel without much worry about gas quality.
#2179
04-08-2012 | 11:31 AM
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Thats a lot of adjustment, so do some datalog runs with plenty of roll-ons and make sure you aren't getting any spark-retard events. If not, go for it. When I had my stock cams and a FM Stage 1 installed I couldn't bump advance at all using 93-octane gas (E0). Now with the SE255 cams I can go +3° in the cruise range, and +5 gives audible detonation. I haven't tried adjusting spark since getting the PV and probably should run more tests to get it as high as possible, but I want a buffer that will allow me to travel without much worry about gas quality.
I agree. It's alot of adjustment and I was surprised that there is still so little knock. Absolutely nothing that's audible and very little in the knock tables. My tuner said a quick way to check for knock is called "shock knock". Assuming you have a good performing map, go to wide open throttle at around 2000rpms. If your map is going to generate any audible knock, this will be the place to test.
I've had no knock under these conditions or anywhere else, although it s worth noting that the ambient temps are still pretty cool.
The engine runs nice and cool with the open loop maps (around 215) and relatively cool even with the closed loop maps (around 225-230).
If it weren't such a dramatic difference in performance I wouldn't press the issue, but the +8 map is sooooo much stronger than the base map or even the +5 map. I plan to make some additional data logs when the outside temps get hot to make sure I'm still in a safe range on the spark tables but so far there is very little knock and in fact there is 0 knock in the rear cylinder.
I only plan to run with the +8 spark map with good fuel (93oct) and relatively cool temps (less than 85 degrees). I have the closed loop +5 spark map that has the knock control turned on, so I view this map as my poor fuel or higher outside temps map.
It's also worth noting that my engine is somewhat higher performance with headwork, hi-lift cams, larger TB and larger injectors so my spark tables are definitely not appropriate for an engine delivering less air and fuel. Its also worth noting my CCP is 197fr/197rr with a leakdown test of only 3%.
Last edited by Heatwave; 04-08-2012 at 11:47 AM.
#2180
04-08-2012 | 11:32 AM
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: In a house
I noticed that the values in the top left corner and some others werent changed.....how do I know which ones to alter and which ones to leave as is?...is there a connection between the color shades on the graph?...just getting familiar with this tuner and am finding the documentation very vague in many areas...thanks