Very well said

 

I agree that any tuner that can adapt to changing conditions will be a superior product against a tuner with a canned map.

I wonder how much of a difference that will make on a bike with only stage 1 modifications such as myself and the OP. Certainly this would be a great benefit, if more extensive modifications are made.

Would have definitely bought a tts for my bike if I felt the added expense would result in equally added performance, but I just dont believe it would.

I bought the pcv knowing that if the time ever came that I decided to go with a larger bore, aggressive cams, or other mods, I could purchase a autotune module to work with the pcv and have the ability to adapt.

Of course its only my opinion, but I feel that with only stage 1 mods, a tts or a sept would be overkill for my application, as well as the OP's.

Certainly I could get a more accurate or more "perfect" tune from a more expensive tts or dyno tuning, but I wonder how much more accurate? 1% 3% 10%? Im surely no expert, but I dont feel that it would be very much, and not enough to justify the added expense.

As far as the pcv maps being set up for the worst case bikes, I feel confident that the guys at fuelmoto would use more than one or two bikes to come up with the maps for a specific application. I also would think that they use some form of statistical analysis when doing this, thereby tossing the data from the highest and lowest performers. Now if someone neglects maintenance such as letting their filter clog, then an adaptive tuner will be a great advantage.

Naturally most people (myself included) are going to defend the choices they have made, and spent their own hard earned money on, and for me I felt that the pcv was the best choice given the price, the basic mods, and the expandability of the unit.

If there is someone that really knows the specifics I would like to know the pros/cons between the tts vs pcv with the autotune module, as I would have no problems switching to the tts if it was proven to be a truly superior product.

 

On a stage 1 like you said, might not be no big deal, but 1% 3% and definately 10% are huge to someone that just dropped 6 + grand on motor work. It all goes down to preference. I have thought about taking a bike that is getting a SERT or SEST tune and putting a PCIII or V on it first and making a few passes, then immediately tuning it with the SERT or SEST and comparing the two. It would be a pretty neet thing to do, just for comparison. Maybe someday

 

Let me just say this, as it has been beat to death in several threads. There is no one right system for everyone. Satisfaction with a ride is a judgement call. HD bikes come from the factory severely detuned, so even a stock bike benefits from tuning. The stage 1 download is also a detuned product.

1) So you think a PCV provides a better tune than a TTS tuning kit? Do you have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise? Has PCV with autotune been proven to be a superior product? I don't hear much talk aboui it in tuning forums. How do you define a good tune, horse power, torque, smoothness, a satisfying ride, or one that does it all? Have you heard of anyone running a canned PCV MAP and taking the bike to a dyno shop and being told they couldn’t improve on it? There have been several posts like this from TTS users.

2) Parts for HDs, in general, are way too expensive but TTS is currently maybe $100 more than a PCV (PC recently had to drop their price to be competitive). A lot to me is in excess of $500, but that is a judgement call. Autotunes are a lot more $$ in the end and paying a dyno shop is a lot of $$$. You place emphasis on cost but I dunno, spending $15000 on a bike, another $1000 - $2000 in mods and then skimping on the EFI tune just to save $100? PCVs can certainly make power, but there is a lot of FUD out there otherwise. PCs are simpler to use for many riders and cheaper to tune, but you are not going to get close to getting it all from one. You can spend more money for a dyno to get it set up more precisely... but regardless the system will still fall short.

3) One bike that burns up because of the tuner module would be a PR disaster, regardless of what the statistics are. I don't think outfits take the risk of a rider damaging the bike with their product. They are going to make sure any bike will run safe using a wide variety of fuels. Of course any tuner, regardless of the tool, will set the bike to run safe over a broad range of fuels, but some tools have the capability to measure where the envelope is for that specific bike.... and the tuner pushes that envelope safely.

4) Autotunes are a great idea but are expensive (at least another $500, over a TTS) and are hampered by technology. The sensors are just not that accurate, and I don't think the predictive software can take the place of human analytical skill. Some autotuners have the capability to calibrate the sensors, but I don't think the PCV version does. I don't trust the autotune software to be doing the right thing, if I put in 13.4 for a certain set of conditions, thats what I'd want to see and not be second guessed or overridden. I'd like to double check what the software is doing but I suspect autotune software is proprietary so you have to trust the programers. From reading posts here and other forums, I get the impression that riders that get the best out of autotunes spend a lot of time and money tweaking them... in the end, the TTS kit provides a better tune anyway (perhaps slightly better but for a lot less money). Autotunes have their place for those that want a decent tune and be adaptive but have no desire to understand EFI or work at it, just wanting to ride and forget.

I think noticing 1%, 2%, or 5% detune in the seat of your pants is subjective. But a good tune just feels good. I dunno, spend another $100 now and knowing the tool is about as best you can get short of the lab seems to make sense compared to compromising and then spend money on bandaids only to throw every thing away and start over.. but that just seems to be the nature of us ... like never having time to do it right but have plenty to keep fixing it.

One of many examples "I started my EFI adventure pcIII then stepped up to the sert to try to get better results. I was intrigued with auto tune and added the Terry's components terminal velocity to the sert. I still was not satisfied with the results and stepped up to buying a DTT wego system to get auto tune. I fought this system for a couple of years and never got my economy better than 36 mpg and always had knock issues. The DTT can't deal with timing adjustment. So I upgraded to the TTS system and have been satisfied since."

 

Can someone please explain to me what an adaptive tuner is? I need to know.

 

So first off no, I don't think that the pcv will give a better tune than a tts, If you are going to quote me, then quote the whole post where I said that I knew you could get a better tune from a tts, and that it was probably a better product

Second, the issue is not about spending 1000-2000 dollars on mods, just a simple stage 1 upgrade (the question the OP was asking), again like I said in the post you partially quoted.

Third, I do not have or need any "evidence" as I do not have anything to prove.

Where the hell did the statement about bikes burning down come from?? Are you trying to imply that by using a "piggyback" ecm tuner you are taking the chance that your bike may catch on fire??

Listen here-------Please dont get offended or take this the wrong way.
But in a nutshell all I am trying to say is that I would bet dollars to doughnuts you or anybody else could not tell the difference between the tts or a pcv with the right canned map ON A BIKE WITH JUST SLIP ONS AND A STAGE 1 A/C

 

I quoted the parts of the post(s) to save time for the readers. Its just proper etiquette in most forums when you have long posts and want to save page scrolling by directing attention to certain text, although that can be misleading. Sorry if it offends you but anyone that wants to read the entire post can go back and look. I think you covered more ground than the OP and were asking for proof.

In a nutshell, I THINK YOU ARE DEAD WRONG AND WILL TAKE THAT BET ANYTIME. Anybody can tell the difference between a canned PCV tune and TTS tune on a late model stock bike or one with slip ons or one with major mods, doesn't matter. I don't have the references here, but there have been magazine articles with comparisons. Its an individual personal/emotional judgment call, however, if it makes any real difference to ride satisfaction. Most of us just want to ride reliably and what we get from the factory is just great.

I don't know how you got from damaging a bike to catching on fire... reading into my wording I suppose someone could draw that conclusion... I dunno. I was thinking more in terms of burnt valves or pistons.

BTW how much is a stage I upgrade... last I checked I thought it was close to $1000.

 

I can understand cutting the quote down, but it was done selectively, then you began to accuse me of saying things, I didnt say.

I would like you to show me where I was asking for proof, or how anything I said could possibly be taken that way.

Maybe I got the catching on fire statement from this.

3) One bike that burns up because of the tuner module would be a PR disaster, regardless of what the statistics are. I don't think outfits take the risk of a rider damaging the bike with their product. They are going to make sure any bike will run safe using a wide variety of fuels. Of course any tuner, regardless of the tool, will set the bike to run safe over a broad range of fuels, but some tools have the capability to measure where the envelope is for that specific bike.... and the tuner pushes that envelope safely.

I guess the words "burns up" are what I was reading into if you can call it that
If you still want to talk about proof show me some anecdotal or any other evidence that a fuelmoto supplied map has "burt up" the valves, or damaged someones bike.

I don't understand how you think it's proper etiquette to leave out parts of my post where I said that you could get a better tune with a tts, then start your post with this
1) So you think a PCV provides a better tune than a TTS tuning kit? Do you have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise?

I actually read the op's question, you are the one trying to push it further as well as demand some kind of evidence.

I disagree with a couple of your original points. I don't think I would be surprised at the difference of performance off the line between similar bikes, In fact I think this would be minuscule, and would like to see some of your "evidence" ancedotal or otherwise, but I an assuming, that like everything else you have posted her it's just what you "think"

Also there are just as many people on this board that have posted about the great results they got with both the pcv and the tts, but many many many more posts about how they cant figure out how to make the tts work---knocking, computer issues, installing drivers, not really into riding with a laptop connected to the bike, and the like.

To each his own, I suppose, but the tts costs more than $100 over the pcv, and unless you just go the dealer and hand them a blank check, no way a set of slip ons, and stage 1 a/c is costing a grand. I guess it could be easy if you dont care about how much you spend, or don't care to look at prices.

Like I said before peope are naturally going to defend what they have, and what they have spent their money on, I still don't think it's that much of a difference between the performance you get from a tts and a pcv with a map from someone who knows what they are doing to matter at all.

I already know that in your mind that the tts is leaps and bounds above anything else, I think maybe not so much for mild mods so ok thats your and my opinion, you or I have no "evidence" one way or another.

 

The TTS system is miles ahead because of what it can do and it's reliability. I've never heard or read any thread that states that their TTS software made their bike stop running or limp home or fried wires or got full of water. That's good enough evidence for me and hopefully you too Ewalker302.

 

This issue makes me feel for the guys who are in the boondocks with only maybe a single HD dealer (they only hire the best techs) in their area and limited choices for tuning. I really appreciate having a dozen HD dealers within a 1/2-hour drive, and a score of famed machinists and reputable race tuners to choose from for my performance work. Oh for the days when all we had to do was decide which two jets to change in our CV carbs!