The first question sounds like one that would pertain to trying to tune using a SERT by means of datalogging on-the-road sessions. For that purpose making the VE and VEnew values match might seem to make sense. But since the only places the two could reliably be made to match is in the areas where the O2 sensor can verify AFR it would not seem like a good idea to me. Basically because some experiences have led me to believe the factor which even causes the VEnew to be created also causes an effective change to the VE values outside closed-loop.

If the VE values in the various close/open-loop areas were not already at least proportionately correct it might be adviseable to not alter the proportionalities. I am awaiting a definitive set of answers to my questions above as to why that statement may or may not be true.

I am not a dyno operator nor dyno tuner, so I cannot answer that question. But it would seem to me that at at least the current state of equipment it should be able to automate the VE-setting run to pause long enough at each postion to get a stable AFR, doing it all in one sweep to record and another to confirm alterations to the tables made based on the first run.

 

Andy, that is nice. Now how about one that captures closed-loop operation transitioning to open-loop?

 

Glens
&nbsp\\;
Here you go.
&nbsp\\;
http://www.ncs-stl.com/XIED/AccellToCruise.jpg

 

Okay, a quick glance seems to indicate that VEnew is only present within closed-loop operation. How does this correlate to the AFV setting, I wonder? I would venture a guess that the percentage difference between VE and VEnew is the catalyst for the AFV. As I have said previously, it has been my experience (albeit without the aid of datalogging) that the AFV does indeed factor into all fuel calculations.

Can you sometime in the near future wrangle a stripchart which duplicates this last one, only without the O2 sensors in the way you did in the previous chart? It probably will not answer the specific question I have, but it would be interesting nonetheless.

Thanks, Andy.

 

glens
&nbsp\\;
http://www.ncs-stl.com/sert/o2s_vs_none.jpg I think that is what you are asking for just without the acceleration at the start.&nbsp\\; With the AFV droping to 90 when the o2s are off line,&nbsp\\;I am a little reluctant to nail it without the widebands on line.&nbsp\\; I can't understand why Harley ellected to not at least data feed the AFT and AFV numbers.&nbsp\\; This is advertised as an aid for self tuning for racers all over the instructions.&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
AW

 

Hmm, I hope this does not show up as some sort of duplicate post. I just encountered a hiccup trying a moment ago.

Is is at all possible for you to feel comfortable duplicating that chart, but within it, going open-loop without actually nailing it?

 

On a closed loop bike the Adaptive fuel values are applied in both open and closed loop. So unless you reset/clear those value prior to each data run your just pissing in the wind when trying to look at data. Whittlebeast has been told this so many times but he still doesn't get it. The system works and works well if you understand it. Glens since you seem to have an understanding of a computer do you understand how one looks up a value from an information table and applies weighted averages to that information?

 

Well, I understand many ways to interpolate. Any insight you could provide on which tables are interpolated and the method of interopolation would be appreciated. As I said earlier there seems to be a latency between values which makes deriving interpolation methods extremely difficult. Any insight on that latency would be appreciated as well.

 

Hi Steve. Yes, I understand and am familiar with that concept.

And thanks for the direct-enough-for-now answer. I hope my affirmative answer to your question will result in even more detail at some point in time.

After finishing this post, please take the 5 or 10 minutes it will require of your time and read carefully through a post of mine from the other day: https://www.hdforums.com/fb.asp?m=3561613

But bear in mind a couple of things before and while you do it.

First, it does not (at least I believe I have worded it so) purport to be the definitive explanation of how everything works at the deepest core of the innards. It was primarily an attempt to put a clear and understandable overview of the basics of the systems and, in particular, the relatively un-talked-about gotcha to watch out for. This was targeted at an audience who keeps coming back with questions like will it be okay for me to do this...?, which, to me, indicates little to no understanding of the underlying concepts/principals.

Second, I do not have access to any secret documents. None of the low-level stuff, assuredly, and precious little of the high-level stuff. I have pretty much pieced this all together, gleaning tidbits where and when I could, combined with non-lab-environment (heck, non-instrument of any kind beyond my Fluke multimeter) direct experience with my O7 Road King.

After you have read it, I would appreciate correction in areas where I have come to wrong conclusions. I know that I had mentioned the AFV in that post in ways which would seem inconsistent with my questions to you in this thread. I admit I have been reluctant to do that but felt (and for/just now, at least, feel somewhat affirmed) that it is certainly close enough to be valuable at that level to the readers in general. There is one place in particular, after just reading it again myself, where I see I may have mis-spoken. If you would be so kind as to critique the post, either there, here, or in private, I would be much obliged.

If it is not too much to ask, while you are at it, how well does https://www.hdforums.com/fb.asp?m=3572216 (referring to the making and using of maps for the PC-III) hold water, in your opinion?

Feel free to drop me an e-mail. It seems by your question in that last post that you might be willing to actually discuss some things with me at some depth and I heartily welcome and encourage the discourse in whichever method makes you feel most comfortable.

But I would certainly appreciate an immediate answer to two additional questions, if you would be so kind as to oblige me.
[*] Is there just one overall AFV, or one per cylinder? (I would guess one per cylinder)
[*] What is the total +/- range of this factor?

Thanks for your time and consideration.

 

AFR comes from several tables or constants of information stored in the ECM that are combined to arrive at the delivered AFR and it can be different between the cylinders. I do not understand what your asking with the +/- range??

Understand the data buss on the bike was not developed to be a high speed communications port for ECM data to do development with, so take the data and use your head with it. That means if it doesn't look right it most likely isn't right. The Data buss is for the transfer of information between modules on the bike. The transfer of information goes out first and can cause the ECM information for data collection to be delayed. The update rate for the data is about 8 frames per second at best case, but most commonly runs about 4 frames per second. So if the ECM is busy doing what it has to (like issue spark) it may skip an update of some of the data. Since the ECM does not tell the buss it didn’t do an update the data transmitted is report as it comes.

I have never worked with a PC III so I'm not comfortable event answering a question about building a map for one.