Air fuel ratio
#1
04-12-2008 | 12:38 PM
Thread Starter
|
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 138
From: South of Dallas Area, Texas
#2
04-12-2008 | 01:03 PM
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 21
RE: Air fuel ratio
A simple narrow band 02 for about $20 screwed into a weld in bung and a volt meter will work. .45 v olts is perfect stoch 14.7 to one but it won't be there much if at all. 0-.44 volts is leaner than the 14.7 and .46 - 1volt is fat.You really can't tell how fat or how lean but you can get a good indication at least where you are at.
After that you need to go to about $400 and get an innovate LM-1 and get more serious. Even better a pair of them, one for each cylinder. Caution, at least on the EFI side of thing,s a Harley takes a lot of fuel from one cylinder and sends it the the other side at times and just a few 100 RPM later, things are different. I would bet with carbs things arn't quite as bad but it is just a guess as I have never seen duel widband data logs coming off a carbed bike.
Hope this helps
AW
After that you need to go to about $400 and get an innovate LM-1 and get more serious. Even better a pair of them, one for each cylinder. Caution, at least on the EFI side of thing,s a Harley takes a lot of fuel from one cylinder and sends it the the other side at times and just a few 100 RPM later, things are different. I would bet with carbs things arn't quite as bad but it is just a guess as I have never seen duel widband data logs coming off a carbed bike.
Hope this helps
AW
#3
04-12-2008 | 02:32 PM
HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 3,724
RE: Air fuel ratio
I would like to know where you can buy a narrow band sensor for $20, a switching sensor sure but not a true narrow band. For a switching sensor you will also need to supply the bias voltage to make it work. Stoich is not 14.7 but it's a close guesstimate. Stoich is whatever the fuel is made of and for todays fuel is between 14.6 and 14.68 for what you buy at the pump. Most of the cheap meters like a LM1 are OK but in no way are they accurate. We've tested 4 of them in the same pipe at the same time and found reading +/- .5 AFR between them. It doesn't really matter so long as you use the same meter before and after any changes. A true wide band sensor runs about $900, a narrow band sensor runs about $60 and a switching sensor runs about $20. Does anyone really think you can get the same reading from a $20 or $60 sensor your going to get from a $900 dollar sensor?
#4
04-12-2008 | 02:48 PM
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Southern Indiana. (Louisville KY Metro Area)
#5
04-12-2008 | 06:46 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,537
Likes: 21
RE: Air fuel ratio
Wideband Commander..... Very accurate, but only for checking o2 levels.... Pricey, but well worth it.....
http://www.widebandcommander.com/
For TRUE accuracy, you will need to use a 4 gas analyzer.....
FWIW, Pay attention to what Mr. Cole says... guy knows hiz scheitt.....
http://www.widebandcommander.com/
For TRUE accuracy, you will need to use a 4 gas analyzer.....
FWIW, Pay attention to what Mr. Cole says... guy knows hiz scheitt.....
#6
04-12-2008 | 07:38 PM
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Southern Indiana. (Louisville KY Metro Area)
RE: Air fuel ratio
Bob...these folks http://www.airfuelratio.com/ have a "claimed" accurate AFR system that apparently integrates with WP7. Looking for additional accuracy to coincide with current tuning SERT practices on the DJ...acknowledging that repeatability works pretty well even with a less precise AFR detector.
Yes, to pay attention to the likes of Steve Cole et al of comparable knowledge/experience is an understatement.
Gas analyzers seem to be in the thousands. Just was wondering the manufacturer of the $900 sensor.
Yes, to pay attention to the likes of Steve Cole et al of comparable knowledge/experience is an understatement.
Gas analyzers seem to be in the thousands. Just was wondering the manufacturer of the $900 sensor.
#7
04-12-2008 | 07:50 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,537
Likes: 21
RE: Air fuel ratio
The WBC from Dynojet is a plug and play with WinPEP7....
I use the OE AF pump and the WBC to get 2 realtime o2 readings during my tuning sessions.... Best investment I have done irt the Dyno so far..... Next step is to get my new 250ix.... maybe next year....
Cut my tuning times in 1/2, as I am now GUARANTEED to get accurate and consistant samples (No more do 1 cylinder, through the entire set, then switch over to the other...), and graph it out accurately enough to make my VE adjustments 1 time, and leave it be...
The kit that is from AFR.com is really pricey... $900 just for the stack interface module... $595 for the ENTIRE WBC kit, and it is turnkey....
I use the OE AF pump and the WBC to get 2 realtime o2 readings during my tuning sessions.... Best investment I have done irt the Dyno so far..... Next step is to get my new 250ix.... maybe next year....
Cut my tuning times in 1/2, as I am now GUARANTEED to get accurate and consistant samples (No more do 1 cylinder, through the entire set, then switch over to the other...), and graph it out accurately enough to make my VE adjustments 1 time, and leave it be...
The kit that is from AFR.com is really pricey... $900 just for the stack interface module... $595 for the ENTIRE WBC kit, and it is turnkey....
Trending Topics
#8
04-12-2008 | 08:00 PM
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Southern Indiana. (Louisville KY Metro Area)
RE: Air fuel ratio
Bob...sounds good, the WBC...I'll take a look.
So, you can get simultaneous F&R AFR samples and they'll both show separately on the WP7 graph?
This would definately be a time saver.
I currently use two probes (1 frt & 1 rear) and send them through a selector valve that I incoporated.
Big time saver...but not as much as simultaneous samples would be. Plus, if the accuracy is higher....
Curius too...does the WBC system have a sensor calibration capability.
Thanks,
John
So, you can get simultaneous F&R AFR samples and they'll both show separately on the WP7 graph?
This would definately be a time saver.
I currently use two probes (1 frt & 1 rear) and send them through a selector valve that I incoporated.
Big time saver...but not as much as simultaneous samples would be. Plus, if the accuracy is higher....
Curius too...does the WBC system have a sensor calibration capability.
Thanks,
John
#10
04-12-2008 | 08:45 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,537
Likes: 21
RE: Air fuel ratio
ORIGINAL: HerkoBagger
Bob...sounds good, the WBC...I'll take a look.
So, you can get simultaneous F&R AFR samples and they'll both show separately on the WP7 graph? (That's the beauty of the system.... WinPEP is already setup for it, you will have your AFR table, and you will add the WBC-AFR table...)
This would definately be a time saver. (It is how HD Trained SERT techs are trained, testing 2 seperate streams of exhaust at the same time...)
I currently use two probes (1 frt & 1 rear) and send them through a selector valve that I incoporated. (Probes are old school... place the o2's right in the headpipe, there is a consistent read, plus, you don't have to fish and fiddle the stainless steel tubing up some of these strange bends that some systems are designed with....[but really, I just hate having to force the tubing up to within 8 inches of the port...]..
Big time saver...but not as much as simultaneous samples would be. Plus, if the accuracy is higher....
Curius too...does the WBC system have a sensor calibration capability. Dynojet says that the o2 sensors don't need calibrated... go figure... How do you calibrate the o2 on the dyno that you operate?????)
Thanks,
John
http://www.dynojet.com/motorcycle_dyno/250ix_dyno/Here is the link for the 250ix..... I build Lehman Trikes, and I want to be able to tune as a trike.... Tuning on the fly is tough...
Bob...sounds good, the WBC...I'll take a look.
So, you can get simultaneous F&R AFR samples and they'll both show separately on the WP7 graph? (That's the beauty of the system.... WinPEP is already setup for it, you will have your AFR table, and you will add the WBC-AFR table...)
This would definately be a time saver. (It is how HD Trained SERT techs are trained, testing 2 seperate streams of exhaust at the same time...)
I currently use two probes (1 frt & 1 rear) and send them through a selector valve that I incoporated. (Probes are old school... place the o2's right in the headpipe, there is a consistent read, plus, you don't have to fish and fiddle the stainless steel tubing up some of these strange bends that some systems are designed with....[but really, I just hate having to force the tubing up to within 8 inches of the port...]..
Big time saver...but not as much as simultaneous samples would be. Plus, if the accuracy is higher....
Curius too...does the WBC system have a sensor calibration capability. Dynojet says that the o2 sensors don't need calibrated... go figure... How do you calibrate the o2 on the dyno that you operate?????)
Thanks,
John
http://www.dynojet.com/motorcycle_dyno/250ix_dyno/Here is the link for the 250ix..... I build Lehman Trikes, and I want to be able to tune as a trike.... Tuning on the fly is tough...