Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
#301
03-05-2008 | 02:17 PM
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Rider57...did you get a chance tobreak it down to layman terms for cruiser?? Seems that these IED's are doing a better job than we thought?
Do your homemade IED's run a different resister ( or whichever the teminology) than the Nightriders??
Rider57...did you get a chance tobreak it down to layman terms for cruiser?? Seems that these IED's are doing a better job than we thought?
Do your homemade IED's run a different resister ( or whichever the teminology) than the Nightriders??
My homemade IED is exactly the same as NightRiders.
The resistor values are all 10K in mine, 10+10=20 in series for the 20K, and then another 10K for the series / parallel.
Dont soldier the stainless wires. It wont stay for very long. Use crimp fittings.
1/4 watt resistors work just fine and they are small enough to fit in the OEM tubing.
#302
03-05-2008 | 02:22 PM
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: CKinAZ
Heywood - this type of EFI does not directly measure airflow. There is no "hot wire" sensor or anything like that. HD uses a SD (Speed Density) type of EFI that measures intake air temperature (the IAT sensor) and intake manifold pressure (MAP sensor), then uses a table of values to calculate the mass of air going through the engine.
Most newer EFI systems directly measure the amount of air going into the engie via a Mass Airflow Sensor. When you make changes to a system that has a Mass Airflow Sensor, it will learn the changes and compensate for the additional airflow via adding more fuel (as necessary). It is adaptive. The target values for AFR are stored within the ECU. Tuning of these systems simply adjusts the target values for AFR (I believe).
The SD EFI HD's run cannot adapt to significant changes in the engine. It relies solely on data stored in "look up tables" within the programming of the ECU. When somebody gets a dyno tune, the tuner will modify the numbers in the various tables to adjust for engine/intake/exhaust modifications. It is truly a custom tune. In closed loop mode, the system can adapt a very small amount in order to adjust for outside temperature and pressure variations. When we throw air cleaners and pipes on our bikes, the values stored in the look up tables are still the same ones as stock (unless a tune has been done of course). The ECU doesn't know more air is actually passing through the engine. It still thinks that (given the measured pressure and temperature) the airflow is stock, so it adds only enough fuel to accomodate for how much air it thinks is going through the engine - BUT, with those pipes and air cleaners flowing more air, there IS more air going through and that means the engine will be running lean.
The IED's simply direct the ECU to choose a set of values meant for when it senses the engine is running too lean (it modifies the signal voltage to basically tell the ECU that the engine is running at 15.1:1 AFR) - therefore adding more fuel to get the AFR back down to the 14.6 or 7 range (as far as the ECU is concerned). Obviously, since we are fooling the ECU, the actual AFR's drop to the 14.2:1 range (on a stock bike). All of this can only occur in closed loop mode.
I was unaware that there is any adaptive tables within the HD EFI system. Somebody with SERT experience would have to confirm/deny that. I do not believe it to be the case (but I could be wrong). As far as I know, the system simply switches over to open loop mode and uses the fixed data programmed into the ECU....
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Most newer EFI systems directly measure the amount of air going into the engie via a Mass Airflow Sensor. When you make changes to a system that has a Mass Airflow Sensor, it will learn the changes and compensate for the additional airflow via adding more fuel (as necessary). It is adaptive. The target values for AFR are stored within the ECU. Tuning of these systems simply adjusts the target values for AFR (I believe).
The SD EFI HD's run cannot adapt to significant changes in the engine. It relies solely on data stored in "look up tables" within the programming of the ECU. When somebody gets a dyno tune, the tuner will modify the numbers in the various tables to adjust for engine/intake/exhaust modifications. It is truly a custom tune. In closed loop mode, the system can adapt a very small amount in order to adjust for outside temperature and pressure variations. When we throw air cleaners and pipes on our bikes, the values stored in the look up tables are still the same ones as stock (unless a tune has been done of course). The ECU doesn't know more air is actually passing through the engine. It still thinks that (given the measured pressure and temperature) the airflow is stock, so it adds only enough fuel to accomodate for how much air it thinks is going through the engine - BUT, with those pipes and air cleaners flowing more air, there IS more air going through and that means the engine will be running lean.
The IED's simply direct the ECU to choose a set of values meant for when it senses the engine is running too lean (it modifies the signal voltage to basically tell the ECU that the engine is running at 15.1:1 AFR) - therefore adding more fuel to get the AFR back down to the 14.6 or 7 range (as far as the ECU is concerned). Obviously, since we are fooling the ECU, the actual AFR's drop to the 14.2:1 range (on a stock bike). All of this can only occur in closed loop mode.
I was unaware that there is any adaptive tables within the HD EFI system. Somebody with SERT experience would have to confirm/deny that. I do not believe it to be the case (but I could be wrong). As far as I know, the system simply switches over to open loop mode and uses the fixed data programmed into the ECU....
There are some adaptive setting that can be done with the older Scan-A-Lyzer but not with the newer version called Digital Tech.
With the Scan-A-Lyzer, you can program the step at any range or turn it off keeping the ECU in closed loop.
Mine stays in closed loop, hence the richer readings.
#303
03-05-2008 | 02:24 PM
Road Captain
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
This has been a very long, very interesting and very informative thread. I want to thank everyone who has contributed their experiences and in-depth technical info (most over my poor old head).
Anyway, would it be correct to summarize by saying that the IED devices (either pre-built or home made) are effective in altering the air/fuel mixture (richer in closed loop) by a sufficient amount to reduce exhaust temps and alleviate some of the lean run issues on a basically stock bike?
If so, then it seems to me that they are a pretty good deal for a few $$$.
Anyway, would it be correct to summarize by saying that the IED devices (either pre-built or home made) are effective in altering the air/fuel mixture (richer in closed loop) by a sufficient amount to reduce exhaust temps and alleviate some of the lean run issues on a basically stock bike?
If so, then it seems to me that they are a pretty good deal for a few $$$.
#304
03-05-2008 | 02:25 PM
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: Rider57
heywood727
There are some adaptive setting that can be done with the older Scan-A-Lyzer but not with the newer version called Digital Tech.
With the Scan-A-Lyzer, you can program the step at any range or turn it off keeping the ECU in closed loop.
Mine stays in closed loop, hence the richer readings.
ORIGINAL: CKinAZ
Heywood - this type of EFI does not directly measure airflow. There is no "hot wire" sensor or anything like that. HD uses a SD (Speed Density) type of EFI that measures intake air temperature (the IAT sensor) and intake manifold pressure (MAP sensor), then uses a table of values to calculate the mass of air going through the engine.
Most newer EFI systems directly measure the amount of air going into the engie via a Mass Airflow Sensor. When you make changes to a system that has a Mass Airflow Sensor, it will learn the changes and compensate for the additional airflow via adding more fuel (as necessary). It is adaptive. The target values for AFR are stored within the ECU. Tuning of these systems simply adjusts the target values for AFR (I believe).
The SD EFI HD's run cannot adapt to significant changes in the engine. It relies solely on data stored in "look up tables" within the programming of the ECU. When somebody gets a dyno tune, the tuner will modify the numbers in the various tables to adjust for engine/intake/exhaust modifications. It is truly a custom tune. In closed loop mode, the system can adapt a very small amount in order to adjust for outside temperature and pressure variations. When we throw air cleaners and pipes on our bikes, the values stored in the look up tables are still the same ones as stock (unless a tune has been done of course). The ECU doesn't know more air is actually passing through the engine. It still thinks that (given the measured pressure and temperature) the airflow is stock, so it adds only enough fuel to accomodate for how much air it thinks is going through the engine - BUT, with those pipes and air cleaners flowing more air, there IS more air going through and that means the engine will be running lean.
The IED's simply direct the ECU to choose a set of values meant for when it senses the engine is running too lean (it modifies the signal voltage to basically tell the ECU that the engine is running at 15.1:1 AFR) - therefore adding more fuel to get the AFR back down to the 14.6 or 7 range (as far as the ECU is concerned). Obviously, since we are fooling the ECU, the actual AFR's drop to the 14.2:1 range (on a stock bike). All of this can only occur in closed loop mode.
I was unaware that there is any adaptive tables within the HD EFI system. Somebody with SERT experience would have to confirm/deny that. I do not believe it to be the case (but I could be wrong). As far as I know, the system simply switches over to open loop mode and uses the fixed data programmed into the ECU....
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Most newer EFI systems directly measure the amount of air going into the engie via a Mass Airflow Sensor. When you make changes to a system that has a Mass Airflow Sensor, it will learn the changes and compensate for the additional airflow via adding more fuel (as necessary). It is adaptive. The target values for AFR are stored within the ECU. Tuning of these systems simply adjusts the target values for AFR (I believe).
The SD EFI HD's run cannot adapt to significant changes in the engine. It relies solely on data stored in "look up tables" within the programming of the ECU. When somebody gets a dyno tune, the tuner will modify the numbers in the various tables to adjust for engine/intake/exhaust modifications. It is truly a custom tune. In closed loop mode, the system can adapt a very small amount in order to adjust for outside temperature and pressure variations. When we throw air cleaners and pipes on our bikes, the values stored in the look up tables are still the same ones as stock (unless a tune has been done of course). The ECU doesn't know more air is actually passing through the engine. It still thinks that (given the measured pressure and temperature) the airflow is stock, so it adds only enough fuel to accomodate for how much air it thinks is going through the engine - BUT, with those pipes and air cleaners flowing more air, there IS more air going through and that means the engine will be running lean.
The IED's simply direct the ECU to choose a set of values meant for when it senses the engine is running too lean (it modifies the signal voltage to basically tell the ECU that the engine is running at 15.1:1 AFR) - therefore adding more fuel to get the AFR back down to the 14.6 or 7 range (as far as the ECU is concerned). Obviously, since we are fooling the ECU, the actual AFR's drop to the 14.2:1 range (on a stock bike). All of this can only occur in closed loop mode.
I was unaware that there is any adaptive tables within the HD EFI system. Somebody with SERT experience would have to confirm/deny that. I do not believe it to be the case (but I could be wrong). As far as I know, the system simply switches over to open loop mode and uses the fixed data programmed into the ECU....
There are some adaptive setting that can be done with the older Scan-A-Lyzer but not with the newer version called Digital Tech.
With the Scan-A-Lyzer, you can program the step at any range or turn it off keeping the ECU in closed loop.
Mine stays in closed loop, hence the richer readings.
[IMG]local://upfiles/53823/70220CAF2E78460C960696790228FFAB.jpg[/IMG]
While this is alot better than I currently have on my 07 RG, I am adding Rineharts and the S.E. ac and then have a look / see.
#305
03-05-2008 | 03:04 PM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
Thanks CKinAZ and Rider57
I have installed the Nightrider IED's in my bike already. With yours Rider57, I was just curious as if you'd changed anything. Now that you've mentioned that they are the same as Steve's at Nightrider....I should be sitting with the same numbers (with a slight variance due to the relocation of the IAT of course)
The other question regarding altitude was impart of the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. Would 2000 feet difference make you engine richer due to the higher altitude? Pro ably not as mentioned before.
CKinAZ... I believe I said the same thing to you in post 234....lol
It'd be interesting to see what the parameters would be for the ECM to jump to an open loop.
As for what the Stage 1 download does, and how much it affects the bikes performance, we should see if we can get Steve Cole to see if he could give us some insight if he has any?
For those that don't know Steve, he was very much involved with the SERT program..Infact they own it.
http://www.mastertune.net/index.html
MOCO has gone in another direction, that's why the new SERTs won't work with the old.( According to Steve) I believe cruiser was in on topic as well..
So we all agree that these IED's are, for $80, giving us exactly what we were looking for. Cooler temps, better running bikes, all positives and I haven't seen any negatives as of yet?
I have installed the Nightrider IED's in my bike already. With yours Rider57, I was just curious as if you'd changed anything. Now that you've mentioned that they are the same as Steve's at Nightrider....I should be sitting with the same numbers (with a slight variance due to the relocation of the IAT of course)
The other question regarding altitude was impart of the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. Would 2000 feet difference make you engine richer due to the higher altitude? Pro ably not as mentioned before.
CKinAZ... I believe I said the same thing to you in post 234....lol
It'd be interesting to see what the parameters would be for the ECM to jump to an open loop.
As for what the Stage 1 download does, and how much it affects the bikes performance, we should see if we can get Steve Cole to see if he could give us some insight if he has any?
For those that don't know Steve, he was very much involved with the SERT program..Infact they own it.
http://www.mastertune.net/index.html
MOCO has gone in another direction, that's why the new SERTs won't work with the old.( According to Steve) I believe cruiser was in on topic as well..
So we all agree that these IED's are, for $80, giving us exactly what we were looking for. Cooler temps, better running bikes, all positives and I haven't seen any negatives as of yet?
#306
03-05-2008 | 03:34 PM
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Thanks CKinAZ and Rider57
I have installed the Nightrider IED's in my bike already. With yours Rider57, I was just curious as if you'd changed anything. Now that you've mentioned that they are the same as Steve's at Nightrider....I should be sitting with the same numbers (with a slight variance due to the relocation of the IAT of course)
Very close I would assume. Keep in mind that I am running fulltime in closed loop mode.
The other question regarding altitude was impart of the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. Would 2000 feet difference make you engine richer due to the higher altitude? Pro ably not as mentioned before.
It may, depending on air density or the temp of the air I should say.
CKinAZ... I believe I said the same thing to you in post 234....lol
It'd be interesting to see what the parameters would be for the ECM to jump to an open loop.
As for what the Stage 1 download does, and how much it affects the bikes performance, we should see if we can get Steve Cole to see if he could give us some insight if he has any?
For those that don't know Steve, he was very much involved with the SERT program..Infact they own it.
http://www.mastertune.net/index.html
MOCO has gone in another direction, that's why the new SERTs won't work with the old.( According to Steve) I believe cruiser was in on topic as well..
So we all agree that these IED's are, for $80, giving us exactly what we were looking for. Cooler temps, better running bikes, all positives and I haven't seen any negatives as of yet?
Thanks CKinAZ and Rider57
I have installed the Nightrider IED's in my bike already. With yours Rider57, I was just curious as if you'd changed anything. Now that you've mentioned that they are the same as Steve's at Nightrider....I should be sitting with the same numbers (with a slight variance due to the relocation of the IAT of course)
Very close I would assume. Keep in mind that I am running fulltime in closed loop mode.
The other question regarding altitude was impart of the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. Would 2000 feet difference make you engine richer due to the higher altitude? Pro ably not as mentioned before.
It may, depending on air density or the temp of the air I should say.
CKinAZ... I believe I said the same thing to you in post 234....lol
It'd be interesting to see what the parameters would be for the ECM to jump to an open loop.
As for what the Stage 1 download does, and how much it affects the bikes performance, we should see if we can get Steve Cole to see if he could give us some insight if he has any?
For those that don't know Steve, he was very much involved with the SERT program..Infact they own it.
http://www.mastertune.net/index.html
MOCO has gone in another direction, that's why the new SERTs won't work with the old.( According to Steve) I believe cruiser was in on topic as well..
So we all agree that these IED's are, for $80, giving us exactly what we were looking for. Cooler temps, better running bikes, all positives and I haven't seen any negatives as of yet?
#307
03-05-2008 | 04:12 PM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
Those are nice numbers on the dyno... Is it Stock?? 92 hp and 100torque??
Now That would be interesting. Stock dyno vs. A/C, pipes and With--w/oIED's.
BTW...how are you able to stay in a closed loop mode?? What's preventing it to going open?? (Opps Scan-A--Lyzer)
BCguy......Looks like the ticket. Stage 1 download and a set of these should keep you happy. I doubt I'll take mine much further than this for the year.
Now That would be interesting. Stock dyno vs. A/C, pipes and With--w/oIED's.
BTW...how are you able to stay in a closed loop mode?? What's preventing it to going open?? (Opps Scan-A--Lyzer)
BCguy......Looks like the ticket. Stage 1 download and a set of these should keep you happy. I doubt I'll take mine much further than this for the year.
#308
03-05-2008 | 06:18 PM
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,205
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From: Arizona
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
Just came back from one more Test. All test are done with the IED's on.
My last test I ran the bike with the stock air box and stock exhaust. Removing my K&N, and Rush Mufflers (2 inch). Outside temps were about identical with today around 72 degrees.
Today I tested the bike replacing the stock exhaust with the Rush Mufflers (2 inch) but left the stock air cleaner on. The Bike ran cooler than it did with the stock exhaust. Going about 30 miles of cruising speeds varying from 50 to 70 I pulled off the road and shut her down. The Rear Head fluctuated between 250 and 248 degrees. The Front was 10 degrees cooler at 238 degrees.
Coming back I hit some traffic, a detour cause of a car accident, and a couple of long lights. The street leading up to my house is like 25 mph for about a mile. All in All I was still pleasantly surprised to see that it was only 300 degrees rear head and 283 degrees on the front Head.
I'm going to leave the bike this way. It runs great. Throttle response is real good, sounds good with the Rush mufflers, and the engine runs nice and smooth. This is the best the engine has ever run.
Down the road I will attemp the IAT relocation.
My sincere Thanks to everyone who has participated in this experiment. I concur with Heywood that this is a total success.
My last test I ran the bike with the stock air box and stock exhaust. Removing my K&N, and Rush Mufflers (2 inch). Outside temps were about identical with today around 72 degrees.
Today I tested the bike replacing the stock exhaust with the Rush Mufflers (2 inch) but left the stock air cleaner on. The Bike ran cooler than it did with the stock exhaust. Going about 30 miles of cruising speeds varying from 50 to 70 I pulled off the road and shut her down. The Rear Head fluctuated between 250 and 248 degrees. The Front was 10 degrees cooler at 238 degrees.
Coming back I hit some traffic, a detour cause of a car accident, and a couple of long lights. The street leading up to my house is like 25 mph for about a mile. All in All I was still pleasantly surprised to see that it was only 300 degrees rear head and 283 degrees on the front Head.
I'm going to leave the bike this way. It runs great. Throttle response is real good, sounds good with the Rush mufflers, and the engine runs nice and smooth. This is the best the engine has ever run.
Down the road I will attemp the IAT relocation.
My sincere Thanks to everyone who has participated in this experiment. I concur with Heywood that this is a total success.
#309
03-05-2008 | 08:32 PM
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
I have been lurking for 8 pages and then just had to put my IEDs on my bike. At first it seemed no different and oil temps about the same. Last few days here have been even warmer than when I did not have them on and the bike seems to be running 3-5 degrees cooler - again these are oil temps at the sump.... Gas milage was only about 2-3 mpgs less. I am hoping that I can get on a local dyno of a person who is interested in seeing how these show differences with and with out them on - free dyno time... If I can pull this off I will put results here.
#310
03-05-2008 | 09:38 PM
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Arizona