Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
#291
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Perfect, I was just wondering when looking at Rider57's numbers and throttle position, where abouts did the Air Fuel Ratio jump to an open loop setting??
I would have thought that the numbers would be lower, or would the bike have to underload for the Mass Airflow to kick it to open loop.
Perfect, I was just wondering when looking at Rider57's numbers and throttle position, where abouts did the Air Fuel Ratio jump to an open loop setting??
I would have thought that the numbers would be lower, or would the bike have to underload for the Mass Airflow to kick it to open loop.
AW
#292
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: whittlebeast
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Perfect, I was just wondering when looking at Rider57's numbers and throttle position, where abouts did the Air Fuel Ratio jump to an open loop setting??
I would have thought that the numbers would be lower, or would the bike have to underload for the Mass Airflow to kick it to open loop.
Perfect, I was just wondering when looking at Rider57's numbers and throttle position, where abouts did the Air Fuel Ratio jump to an open loop setting??
I would have thought that the numbers would be lower, or would the bike have to underload for the Mass Airflow to kick it to open loop.
AW
#293
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
You know guys, there seem to be a lot of people following this thread on what we're doing and some of the terms we're using maybe confusing people or scaring the off or making it sound more technical than it has to be for the adverage guy.
Do you think that we could list a few things in layman terms so more people can take advantage of the information were talking about?
These forms are a great help and a wealth of info. I just hate to leave someone confused of not be able to take advantage of what we're talking about and help them apply it to something they may be able to relate it too. More heads are better than 1 if we're all on the same page.
AFR.......Air Fuel Ratio
Map...Mass Air Flow sensor
IAT.....internal (initial)Air Temperature?? <Intake Air Temperture sensor>
You know guys, there seem to be a lot of people following this thread on what we're doing and some of the terms we're using maybe confusing people or scaring the off or making it sound more technical than it has to be for the adverage guy.
Do you think that we could list a few things in layman terms so more people can take advantage of the information were talking about?
These forms are a great help and a wealth of info. I just hate to leave someone confused of not be able to take advantage of what we're talking about and help them apply it to something they may be able to relate it too. More heads are better than 1 if we're all on the same page.
AFR.......Air Fuel Ratio
Map...Mass Air Flow sensor
IAT.....internal (initial)Air Temperature?? <Intake Air Temperture sensor>
#294
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
#296
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
MAP (in caps) is normally the Mannifold Air Pressure as read by the MAP sensor This is the air pressure in the intake mannifold. The easy way to think of it is 100 KPAis 100% air like when at sea level. 20 is simmilar to 20% air so almost all of the the air has been sucked out of the intake buy the motor like on a high RPM downshift. 40 KAP is what these motors tend to idle at.75 KPA is fairly hard into the throttle.
Map (in small letters) tends to refer to thefuel and or timing charts that define when to bring on the fuel or timing
AFR Air Fuel Ratio remember 12:1 is lots of fuel and 17:1 is real lean. In the Harley world 14.7 (some feel 14.2) is about as lean as you ever want to go and 12.7+/- is rich.
AC Air Cleaner
VE Volumetric Efficiency. The ability of the motor to suck air compared to what theory woud prodict the flow would be considdering the MAP reading in the intake. 100 is no loss in flow thru the intale valve and or the throttle body/Air Cleaner. Exhaust that never got out of the cylinder due to strange things going on in the exhaust will mess with your head on this one. Bigger numbers mean more fuel.
Map (in small letters) tends to refer to thefuel and or timing charts that define when to bring on the fuel or timing
AFR Air Fuel Ratio remember 12:1 is lots of fuel and 17:1 is real lean. In the Harley world 14.7 (some feel 14.2) is about as lean as you ever want to go and 12.7+/- is rich.
AC Air Cleaner
VE Volumetric Efficiency. The ability of the motor to suck air compared to what theory woud prodict the flow would be considdering the MAP reading in the intake. 100 is no loss in flow thru the intale valve and or the throttle body/Air Cleaner. Exhaust that never got out of the cylinder due to strange things going on in the exhaust will mess with your head on this one. Bigger numbers mean more fuel.
#298
#299
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Rider57...did you get a chance tobreak it down to layman terms for cruiser?? Seems that these IED's are doing a better job than we thought?
Do your homemade IED's run a different resister ( or whichever the teminology) than the Nightriders??
Rider57...did you get a chance tobreak it down to layman terms for cruiser?? Seems that these IED's are doing a better job than we thought?
Do your homemade IED's run a different resister ( or whichever the teminology) than the Nightriders??
AW
#300
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Does the MAP sensor measure the amount of airflow through the throttle body?? Is it Flow or pressure?? What else measures the amount of airflow in the throttle body to tell it how much fuel to get the ratio? Had the piano wire in my 4th gen LT1 Firebird.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting my head around this as well. What is the term for the MAP sensors to you?? ( thus the list I was alluding to earlier)
Most newer EFI systems directly measure the amount of air going into the engie via a Mass Airflow Sensor. When you make changes to a system that has a Mass Airflow Sensor, it will learn the changes and compensate for the additional airflow via adding more fuel (as necessary). It is adaptive. The target values for AFR are stored within the ECU. Tuning of these systems simply adjusts the target values for AFR (I believe).
The SD EFI HD's run cannot adapt to significant changes in the engine. It relies solely on data stored in "look up tables" within the programming of the ECU. When somebody gets a dyno tune, the tuner will modify the numbers in the various tables to adjust for engine/intake/exhaust modifications. It is truly a custom tune. In closed loop mode, the system can adapt a very small amount in order to adjust for outside temperature and pressure variations. When we throw air cleaners and pipes on our bikes, the values stored in the look up tables are still the same ones as stock (unless a tune has been done of course). The ECU doesn't know more air is actually passing through the engine. It still thinks that (given the measured pressure and temperature) the airflow is stock, so it adds only enough fuel to accomodate for how much air it thinks is going through the engine - BUT, with those pipes and air cleaners flowing more air, there IS more air going through and that means the engine will be running lean.
The IED's simply direct the ECU to choose a set of values meant for when it senses the engine is running too lean (it modifies the signal voltage to basically tell the ECU that the engine is running at 15.1:1 AFR) - therefore adding more fuel to get the AFR back down to the 14.6 or 7 range (as far as the ECU is concerned). Obviously, since we are fooling the ECU, the actual AFR's drop to the 14.2:1 range (on a stock bike). All of this can only occur in closed loop mode.
I was unaware that there is any adaptive tables within the HD EFI system. Somebody with SERT experience would have to confirm/deny that. I do not believe it to be the case (but I could be wrong). As far as I know, the system simply switches over to open loop mode and uses the fixed data programmed into the ECU....