Glens stop Nit Picking. We both have a K&N filter, and Rush slip ons, running with an XIED. Why do you always have to be so ****?

How many people have to tell you your obsessive and compulsive before the light bulb comes on?

I made a general statement to Sandpa. I didn't sit here with my slide ruler and do my calculations. "All he has is a clean filter"? Last time I checked they were not oiling the stock air filters.

You know in all honesty I tried to get out of this thread over a week ago. I stopped posting, after all everything that could possibly have been said was said. Anyone coming along now can simply read the pro's and cons and make their own decision. I would have stayed out of this thread if not for you and your obsession to keep flogging the Dead Horse.

I am done in this thread. I can't say anything else without repeating myself. I suggest you do the same. Although taking advice from someone else is not something that you find easy to do.

Let the people make up their own minds now. All the information is presented up here now. There is nothing else you can add. So lets give everyone a break and let them be adults and decide for themselfs.

 

Cruiser, it's not nit-picking, but rather a fundamental difference. I have been trying to get you to "get it" but to no avail. There is no need to pull a slide-rule out for this most recent "flap". You have a dynamically different airbox from stock. sandpa has a stock airbox. The filter element itself is relatively meaningless in comparison!

Blockhead, I've said that very many times already in this thread alone. I don't doubt that even the techs don't know just what the various things do. They mainly know the procedures to follow for their aspect of the "job". It's probably a rare tech who even cares enough about this kind of stuff to remain just a tech for very long, let alone becoming one in the first place. Most of these folks have to be those uninclined to go to college and get a full degree anyway; going to a community college or a specialty "associate's degree"-offering school to learn how to interact with diagnostic equipment and generally working with engines/chassis is about the most you'll find working back in the shop. Not to put them down for that, but most of them just don't "go there" in terms of engineering-type thought. Our EFI systems are extremely-well-engineered by folks who might not have half a clue when it comes to actually wrenching on the end result. In general they are completely different, but equally necessary, disciplines.

The flow dynamics of an other-than-stock airbox are vastly different at different points in the operational spectrum (as well are, to a generally lesser-extent, even just slip-on mufflers) and therefore require, at a minimum, different Volumetric Efficiency table values. Values which are elemental to the fuel calculations. The differing flow characteristics in various places also require changes to the ignition timing. The rev limiter being raised by the download is a secondary feature, but is the most-easily understood difference so it's no surprise that's mostly what's remembered or discussed about it.

 

Glens, The main difference between air kits is the CFM's. The RK3909 highlights it has a built in velocity stack, but I seriously doubt it functions the way a real velocity stack would. So it comes down to CFM's. It uses the same stock air kit cover, so really how much true difference is there?

Glens I get it just fine, just not what you are selling. All these fundamentals, and theories, and specualtions. The bottom line is how good is the bike running. As you can see by the many who have returned to attest to how good their Bike runs now is proof enough. Unfortunately it doesn't work for everyone. But then again a lot of the other products don't work for everyone either. I bought one of your favorite toys a PCIII. The original thread is still around where a group of us had problems with a hesitation almost a stall that made it dangerous to operate. Neither Jamie nor the people at DynaTek knew the answer at the time. Because they couldn't fix it a full refund was authorized. Although I did lose the money I paid for a Dyno tune plus the money I spent on shipping. So all that glitters is not Gold. It appears they have the PCIII fixed now.

Some of us just want our bike to run a little richer. I have what I want, as do others who have contributed to this thread.

That's why I suggest that you and I have nothing further to contribute to this thread without being repetitive. So let the Jury go out and find there own ruling.

 

You hit the nail on the head and didn't even know it. I've got my stock airbox backing plate in my lap right now. There's roughly 4 square inches of area on the opening to the manifold and just about the same on the opening to the outside air. The K&N backing plate has the same dimensions (obviously) connecting to the manifold but the entire circumference of the backing plate (which matches the shape of the filter element) is directly open to the outside air.

In throttle positions where the butterfly valve is the main obstruction there is no difference (excluding airbox internal resonances, etc.) between the two. This largely coincides with the closed-loop operational range, where the ECU develops its "autotuning" changes. It transfers those changes to the open-loop ranges (which is otherwise entirely correct to do) where the K&N backing plate offers very much less obstruction to flow as compared to the stock backing plate. Now you have the capability to flow much more air (again discounting resonances, etc.) but the programming is providing only the fuel that pertains to the intake parts it was set up for, which is much less air flow. Same fuel, more air, and no confirmation via the O2 sensors. Pull out your slide rule and do the math. This is the primary purpose of "the stage 1 download" for the SE airbox, which is functionally (including the "velocity stack") equivalent, though obviously with slight differences (resonances, etc.), to alter the VE tables so that the fueling will be correct as necessary.

The velocity stack, inasmuch as it performs as one, is similar to a horn on a loudspeaker transducer. You can take a 1", a 5", and a 15" driver, combined with appropriate crossover networking, and have a complete-range loudspeaker system which will produce 80 decibels of volume with 1 Watt of input power. If you take similar drivers and couple them to the atmosphere with proper horns, you can produce 100 decibels of volume (4 times as much!) with that same 1 Watt of input. It's an impedance-matching thing; the impedance of the air right at the surface of the driver and the impedance of the air several feet away from it. In the case of the velocity stack, it functions in exactly the reverse direction, rallying relatively stationary air into an aligned flow pattern prior to hitting the intake of the manifold. I'm sure the effect is "effectual" even with the limited rubber "stack" in the K&N backing plate.

I'm not selling anything. Merely trying to help you understand what's going on so you can make an informed choice. They are fundamentals and theories, to be sure, but very much less speculation than you're wanting to believe. The real bottom line is how good the bike should be running. If you don't even know what to look for, how can you possibly reach a valid conclusion?

Cruiser, you have 2" Rush mufflers slipped onto your touring exhaust. You need discreet fuel management for that to perform the best it can. You have an entirely different-performing airbox, which needs discreet fuel management to perform properly. Combined, you really need discreet fuel (and spark) management to have the setup operate properly. Sure, it'll run "okay" in most cases without some means of altering the fueling programming, but not nearly as good as it will with altered programming to match the parts. The IEDs are great at externally elevating the entire fueling regime on a system which is otherwise correctly-tuned. They cannot hope to cover the changes you have introduced.

And the "autotuning" our ECU does will only get it a little closer to better in a few ways. With your (and my, the same) combination of parts, there are actually areas where the autotuning (based on stock parts programming) results in wrong changes from what's needed.

Good luck.

 

I've been told by a local HD mech. and by a few independent mechs. That the Stage 1 Kit raises the rev limiter and also changes AFR from 14.7 to 14.5, Can't honestly verify that, but its what I've heard. BTW I pulled my plugs this weekend and they have a really nice color to them, like I'm actualy getting fuel!

Another Happy Customer!

 

Glens, I have never heard so much jabberwoky in my life. To obtain the results you say are possible, the costs far out weigh the end results. We have tested the stage 1 kits with the download and found that there is so little difference that it is not even worth a consideration. And again, this test was with many non-H-D exhausts and intakes with the same results. In the end, all of us at the lab ( about 65 years total experience) agreed that the cost far out weighed the results. In 45 years of riding and working on H-D's, I have never gone to the expense and time needed to fine tune any of my bikes to such a unrealistic degree of perfection knowing that the result would be for naught after the temps or baro changed with in the next 75 to 100 miles.

 

Rider57, you've just lost me. Where do you mean there is so little difference? Between the HD stage 1 download and what?

The whole point to closed-loop operation is that the result won't be for naught with normal temp and baro changes. You have to have the proper base tune for the adaptive system to start from. How far to pursue the base tune is certainly debatable, but the system should be able to handle environmental changes after that. Are you saying it can't or were you just exaggerating to make a point?

 

The difference is between stock and SE1 download and approved matching components. The proper base tune is already in the bike upon delivery. We tested 14, 2007 and 2008 models, all with and without the SE kit and found so little difference that we could not justify the cost. We all agreed that the sert would make a better attempt and give better results, provided you or your tuner knows what they are doing with it. When someone can tell me what is "normal" in the temp and baro region for the extreme variations a rider will experience on a 300 to 500 mile ride. Granted, most riders dont go from a snowy mountain top to Death Valley on the 4th of July, but testing has shown us that the results dont match the claims.

 

Well..I just want to say that this discussion has been a great learning process for me in that all this info applies not only to HD but any engine with EFI. Now..I don't feel confused, but to clarify a couple of things in my mind...first, there are way to many factors in any mass produced motor for something like the IED'S to work perfect in every application...right? Timing, plugs, cranks and cams just to name a few items that will be different from motor to motor. No two alike...right?? So, that will explain why the IED'S will work in one motor but may not preform well on another. Now, ya put a fuel management system on with Dino runs, you will get the most performance out of "that" motor that you can possibly get...right?? So, another motor with the exact same add ons may perform better or worse or the same depending on all the other factors involved. Mass production sucks..we need hand built, blueprinted motors.....PS...you guys type fast!!!!!

 

Interesting, which of these DL's is the Stage 1 DL?? If the proper base tune is already in the bike from the factory,(obviously or the bike wouldn't run) and pretty much all bikes today that leave the factory are EPA/CARB approved, how do you know? I suspect mine came with the first one listed, I now have the last one listed, programed in my bike, so I know that ain't it! Could it be number 2 or 3? hard to tell, if at all because no reference is made to Intake, not to mention there is nothing to differentiate wht the programs are. Or, this post is completely meaningless!

Complements of ShovelHead BOB

Digital Tech Part Nbr: 32899-07E/DT
Calibration ID: 32899-07E
Description: STOCK OE
Street Legal for: 49S,Calif.
Race Only for:
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Model Year: 2007, 2008
Platform: Dyna, Softail
Model: FXD, FXDB, FXDC, FXDF, FXDL, FXDWG, FLSTC, FLSTF, FLSTN, FLSTSB, FXCW, FXCWC, FXST, FXSTB, FXSTC, FXSTD, FLSTC (SHRINE), FLSTF (SHRINE)
Exhaust System: Original Equipment (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32498-05,32498-05A,32534-05,32534-05A,32534-05B,32852-06,32852-07,32534-05C,32852-08,32852-08A
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1580
Fuel Injectors: 06-09 Twin Cam 25 deg Injector (27709-06 / 06A)
Air Cleaner: Original Equipment
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: Original Equipment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Digital Tech Part Nbr: 32899-07E/DT
Calibration ID: 32899-07E
Description: STOCK CAL - STREET PERFORMANCE EXHAUST
Street Legal for: 49S,Calif.
Race Only for:
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Model Year: 2007, 2008
Platform: Dyna, Softail
Model: FXD, FXDB, FXDC, FXDF, FXDL, FXDWG, FLSTC, FLSTF, FLSTN, FLSTSB, FXCW, FXCWC, FXST, FXSTB, FXSTC, FXSTD, FLSTC (SHRINE), FLSTF (SHRINE)
Exhaust System: H-D Slip-On & SE Street Performance (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32498-05,32498-05A,32534-05,32534-05A,32534-05B,32852-06,32852-07,32534-05C,32852-08,32852-08A
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1580
Fuel Injectors: 06-09 Twin Cam 25 deg Injector (27709-06 / 06A)
Air Cleaner: Original Equipment
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: Original Equipment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Digital Tech Part Nbr: 32899-07E/DT
Calibration ID: 32899-07E
Description: STOCK CAL - STREET PERFORMANCE EXHAUST
Street Legal for: 49S,Calif.
Race Only for:
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Model Year: 2007, 2008
Platform: Dyna, Softail
Model: FXD, FXDB, FXDC, FXDF, FXDL, FXDWG, FLSTC, FLSTF, FLSTN, FLSTSB, FXCW, FXCWC, FXST, FXSTB, FXSTC, FXSTD, FLSTC (SHRINE), FLSTF (SHRINE)
Exhaust System: H-D Slip-On & SE Street Performance (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32498-05,32498-05A,32534-05,32534-05A,32534-05B,32852-06,32852-07,32534-05C,32852-08,32852-08A
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1580
Fuel Injectors: 06-09 Twin Cam 25 deg Injector (27709-06 / 06A)
Air Cleaner: Original Equipment
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: Original Equipment


Search Results: 1 Applicable Calibration(s)

Digital Tech Part Nbr: 32899-07F/DT
Calibration ID: 32899-07F
Description: STOCK OE
Street Legal for: 49S,Calif.
Race Only for:
Restricted Power: Unrestricted - (Full Power)
Req'd Configuration:
Model Year: 2007, 2008
Platform: Dyna, Softail
Model: FXD, FXDB, FXDC, FXDF, FXDL, FXDWG, FLSTC, FLSTF, FLSTN, FLSTSB, FXCW, FXCWC, FXST, FXSTB, FXSTC, FXSTD, FLSTC (SHRINE), FLSTF (SHRINE)
Exhaust System: Original Equipment (Legal)
ECM/ICM: 32498-05,32498-05A,32534-05,32534-05A,32534-05B,32852-06,32852-07,32534-05C,32852-08,32852-08A
Cylinder Heads: Original Equipment
Engine Displacement (cc): 1580
Fuel Injectors: 06-09 Twin Cam 25 deg Injector (27709-06 / 06A)
Air Cleaner: Original Equipment
Throttle Body/Induction
Module: Original Equipment
Cam Shaft: Original Equipment
Pistons: Original Equipment
O2 Sensor: Original Equipment