Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
#2761
I'm one of the guys who has been following this post a long time, trying to decide what to do. I was going to buy the IEDs, then the XIEDs came out. After all this time, it seems no one can definitively say they work or not, a lot of opinions and "seat of the pants", but then if we own something we are experts on it, right? Just a thought, I spend 300-400 bucks on slip-ons, another 100 or so on a hi-flow air cleaner, another couple thousand on tour pak, pegs, chrome, etc., why would I fret over the difference of $200 over the cost of XIED to something like a PCIII, knowing the PCIII is fully tuneable and the XIED jury is stillout? Not being a smartazz, just trying to figure out why it's such a big deal to save $200 on performance items only to be spent at Kuryakyn on shiny stuff. I run a Fuel Pak now, was going to add the XIEDs, after reading all this, a PCIII is on my Xmas list.
Christmas list?? Isn't that where someone else buys it for you?
#2763
I have 2 Dyna's and a Chev Truck, duals on the truck and a HUGE aftermarket air filter box, still have the factory 02 sensors, I did not have to take it any where to have the computer tuned/updated/adjusted or had a dyno tune, engine smoothed out, mileage increased.
If the EFI "experts" on this site can, in plain English tell me why the HD system needs expensive upgrades to function after basic intake and exhaust changes please do!!!
Please do not default to "EPA mandated", my truck operates under the same rules
If the EFI "experts" on this site can, in plain English tell me why the HD system needs expensive upgrades to function after basic intake and exhaust changes please do!!!
Please do not default to "EPA mandated", my truck operates under the same rules
#2764
Developing SERT is much simpler than developing the actual ECM code used by the Harley. SERT and TTS are nothing more than a human interface/computer program for passing data into parameter tables to the inside of the actual Delphi ECM code. This is two completely different computer programming disciplines.
The ECM code was developed by Delphi engineers to Harley-Davidson specifications. Developing this type of computer program is frequently called real time programming or process control programming. But no matter what you call it, it is a very distinct computer engineering discipline with a very specific skill sets required.
The programming skills required to create a SERT or TTS is essentially fairly conventional. The fact that they read and write data from a small EFI computer does not make them complex or magical. Understanding EFI is not a requirement to write this type of interface program, although it can help.
So do not assume that being able to develop SERT or TTS makes you an expert on the Harley EFI. It only makes you proficient in reading a software requirements document and developing screen oriented programs.
My comments are not intended to detract from the overall knowledge of people like Steve Cole who does have a lot of valuable information. But he should be the first ones to confirm that ECM development and interface development are completely different skill sets.
The ECM code was developed by Delphi engineers to Harley-Davidson specifications. Developing this type of computer program is frequently called real time programming or process control programming. But no matter what you call it, it is a very distinct computer engineering discipline with a very specific skill sets required.
The programming skills required to create a SERT or TTS is essentially fairly conventional. The fact that they read and write data from a small EFI computer does not make them complex or magical. Understanding EFI is not a requirement to write this type of interface program, although it can help.
So do not assume that being able to develop SERT or TTS makes you an expert on the Harley EFI. It only makes you proficient in reading a software requirements document and developing screen oriented programs.
My comments are not intended to detract from the overall knowledge of people like Steve Cole who does have a lot of valuable information. But he should be the first ones to confirm that ECM development and interface development are completely different skill sets.
#2765
Missed my point completely, but of course, that is normal a lot on this forum, you own XIEDs, so of course any thing contrary is good reason to become defensive and rag on somebody. I did not mean to imply anyone could not afford to spend more than $100, quite the contrary if you took the time to read. I was assuming, since you invested so much money, you should be able to afford the tuner of your choice, so why are people scrimping on something as important as controoling the AFR on their engine? But, hey, since I am so offensive, I'll just back out and watch again, so sorry I joined in the conversation, my bad, didn't mean to interrupt.
#2766
So Steve,
Do you have dyno data showing XIED operation at all throttle sites versus live AFR data versus the AFR ratio Table? The question is even stock bikes from the factory with no modifications do not have calibrated VE tables. Without calibrated VE tables when the master AFR Table says 14.6 it may be a completely different value higher or lower. You add the Xied and it does like it is advertized and globally richens the AFR values across the entire RPM/TPS range. For example if the Target is 14.6 and the VE table is high it may have a real value of 14 or lower. You add the XIEd to globally richen the the bike and now you are getting real values in the low 13s or even lower. I want to make sure people do not confuse this, which works as advertized, with a professional tuned bike no matter what the tuning device. IMO there is a big difference. Calibrated VE tables or calibrated fuel values are the best way.
Ed Dahir
The Dyno Difference
Do you have dyno data showing XIED operation at all throttle sites versus live AFR data versus the AFR ratio Table? The question is even stock bikes from the factory with no modifications do not have calibrated VE tables. Without calibrated VE tables when the master AFR Table says 14.6 it may be a completely different value higher or lower. You add the Xied and it does like it is advertized and globally richens the AFR values across the entire RPM/TPS range. For example if the Target is 14.6 and the VE table is high it may have a real value of 14 or lower. You add the XIEd to globally richen the the bike and now you are getting real values in the low 13s or even lower. I want to make sure people do not confuse this, which works as advertized, with a professional tuned bike no matter what the tuning device. IMO there is a big difference. Calibrated VE tables or calibrated fuel values are the best way.
Ed Dahir
The Dyno Difference
#2767
My XIEDs also work great, I have no complaints, also I'd like to say I had a question for Steve at NightRider, He responded very quickly and gave me the info I was looking for. In my opinion the product works great and the people at NightRider back them and are quick to answer any questions you may have.
Tom
Tom
#2768
Missed my point completely, but of course, that is normal a lot on this forum, you own XIEDs, so of course any thing contrary is good reason to become defensive and rag on somebody. I did not mean to imply anyone could not afford to spend more than $100, quite the contrary if you took the time to read. I was assuming, since you invested so much money, you should be able to afford the tuner of your choice, so why are people scrimping on something as important as controoling the AFR on their engine? But, hey, since I am so offensive, I'll just back out and watch again, so sorry I joined in the conversation, my bad, didn't mean to interrupt.
I can afford a PCIII, in fact I previously owned one. Eventually it was returned to Jamie because it had a problem that they could not isolate or fix. I have also had a Race Tuner in the past. Both I paid additional money to have them dyno tuned. The device I have on my Bike now was not because it was all I could afford. It happens to work quite nicely and I am very happy with the way my Bike runs.
Money has nothing to do with it.
#2769
frog 13 its not about$$$ its about a waste of$$$ when something comes along better or does the job cheaper and less intrusive into the motocycle.... why not use it. again KISS. i don't think curiser started the mud throwing. i have read pretty much of this and came away with...the feeling glens(sorry if i'm wrong),has ownership in power commander or stock in that company. i've had a pcIII on a wideglide standard down load and still did not do what this xeided has. also afuel pack on a nighttrain that was a nightmare.granted maybe the installers did not know what they were doing! but ease of xieds is AMAZING and they work 4 me
Last edited by 09fatbob; 08-15-2008 at 01:52 PM.
#2770
Developing SERT is much simpler than developing the actual ECM code used by the Harley... The ECM code was developed by Delphi engineers to Harley-Davidson specifications. Developing this type of computer program is frequently called real time programming or process control programming. But no matter what you call it, it is a very distinct computer engineering discipline with a very specific skill sets required.
...
So do not assume that being able to develop SERT or TTS makes you an expert on the Harley EFI. It only makes you proficient in reading a software requirements document and developing screen oriented programs.
My comments are not intended to detract from the overall knowledge of people like Steve Cole who does have a lot of valuable information. But he should be the first ones to confirm that ECM development and interface development are completely different skill sets.
...
So do not assume that being able to develop SERT or TTS makes you an expert on the Harley EFI. It only makes you proficient in reading a software requirements document and developing screen oriented programs.
My comments are not intended to detract from the overall knowledge of people like Steve Cole who does have a lot of valuable information. But he should be the first ones to confirm that ECM development and interface development are completely different skill sets.
What about using different resistive values to avoid throwing errors?
Last edited by glens; 08-15-2008 at 01:58 PM.