The Nightrider web site is back up

 

glens
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&nbsp\\;&nbsp\\; I've built my bike for a bigger build down the road. If you look back in the first 10 pages of this post, you might seem to see the problems that I had with these new pipes. I went through a few different set-ups.
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&nbsp\\; The FP was put on before the XIED's were invented. The FP may have a small sort of IED in them, but as stated before, they are still under the watch of the EPA. I doubt that they will get me as rich as I need to be in the closed loop portion of the map without getting fined. The heat score on my heatshield was bad after 150 miles.&nbsp\\; The dealer put in a map for Rinehart TD's. V&amp\\;H came back with Map 1779 for the BUB&nbsp\\;7 TD's. Quite a few changes between the maps.&nbsp\\; Bub ponied up for a new heatshield under warranty.
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&nbsp\\; As for am I sure what I'm doing? I'm pretty confident in being able to read the changes is my scooter as I made the changes. It wasn't a "just throw everything on it at once and she what it does" senario. It was a step by step progression until I found the right set-up for me in a real world environment.
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&nbsp\\; Had the XIED's been&nbsp\\;there at the start...... I doubt I would have needed the FP. The HD mapping for the open loop portion&nbsp\\;may have been good enough.
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&nbsp\\; The one variable that some have to remember are my pipes and lack of a flash from MOCO for them or any TD's. They are almost (IMHO) too big for just a stock engine and need some sort of fuel management system.
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glen.... I really haven't got a bone to pick with you, but all I can offer is my real world opinion and results of what I've done and gone through. I haven't been bothered with taking a temperature reading, or go looking for dormant codes. I've actually physically went through every step to get where I've got a nice light coating of soot after every 200 miles to tell me that I'm right in the wheel house of the richness scale for my application. The heat issue is down as well. I can physically feel it and as I've gone through the steps of my progression, my EITMS confirms what I feel as well. The bike was delivered March 1st with a little snow still on the ground. With just the flash (which was wrong) pipes and hi-flow, at 38F after sitting at the lights for say 15 mins., the EITMS would kick on. Now with the temps in the 90's, same route, same run, my EITMS has kicked on maybe&nbsp\\;once.
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&nbsp\\; You can put a lot on paper and it seems that your working on theory. I, on the other hand, only offer what happen in the real world with my particular set-up and riding habits. Am I putting my scooter in harms way? With all the physical evidence (light carbon soot on my end caps), over all feel of the power band, drop in heat....... it's in better shape than what the factory sent out.
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&nbsp\\; Your theory may have some merit, but it also seems to leave a lot up for interpretation on how you read it. I can live with that, but really I challange you to get a set and and then come back and publish your findings. For now it's theory and conjecture.
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&nbsp\\; They physical part of it is in my garage. All you have is theory. I can live with that, but I can feel the difference every time I throw a leg over it in any configuration I choose ( been there, done that) vs. what you may think is going to happen on paper.
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&nbsp\\; Don't get me wrong glen, I'm not beating on you and I respect your opinion. The forms are good for that, but IMHO your argument doesn't hold much water in my case. That being said.... no 2 bike will be the same, but it seems the majority of us who have put on the IED's or XIED's are genuinely quite happy with how they've worked out and have, more or less, gotten the same results.
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&nbsp\\; Like I said above, you should get a set. Right now your guessing and&nbsp\\;I'm not.

 

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&nbsp\\; California and Switzerland are the 2 markets in the world that have catalytic exhausts. Everyone else gets the "International " version. That's what they call it. Don't ask me why??
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&nbsp\\; Did you go back to V&amp\\;H's site to see if you have an updated map? You can always e-mail them for your set-up. They responded in 2 days for mine.
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Heywood

 

Quick note you can not get a true reading on crome with a therm gun. read the box
They advise aginst it.

 

yes, I had called them, and Adam told me I had the most up to date, best map I could use for my setup, and couldn't offer me any suggestions, except changing mode 23 from 16 to 15. I didn't mention the XIEDs, though. From what I read on here and other sites, V&amp\\;H gets kind of an attitude about the XIEDs and says they won't work with the FP. They DO work together, but I found my bike runs better with the FP alone.
smitty901, You're right about the chrome...I've had&nbsp\\;a few temp guns, and the first one was fairly accurate until I tried reading something that was chrome, then it was all messed up...permanantly. I have a good one now, and always point it at the black part of the head, and always in the same spot.

 

MOMENTARY SIDETRACK WARNING

Yes! Precisely what I was looking for. Thank you!

All that coincides with other information I have been able to pick up. One thing I have not been able to discover is whether it is ±40% or ±20% (for 40% total range). I would tend to think it is a total range figure. 80% total range would be a little harder to justify. I realize it is only in the closed-loop areas, but nearly half-again as much injector time could get problematic for other reasons. Can you clarify that for me?

Do you know if altering the CLBs toward a lower AFR affects the AFVs? I would hope that altering the CLBs would not also effectively alter the open-loop VEs, but this seems as though it could occur inadvertently. I have a specific reason for wondering this. If you do not already see it yourself let me know.

Oh, and I am sure there is an algorithm in place in the ECU to consider dither (already part of determining the AFV, no doubt), but are the DTCs for too lean/rich triggered by reaching the 40% (whichever that means) limits of the O2 integrators or by the limits of the AFV range? It is probably, of those two choices, the O2 integrators, I would think. This has ramifications in the codes being thrown by the XIEDs in any case. I have heard the exhaust leak reason, but am more inclined to think it has to do with temperature-related nonlinearity of the O2 sensors. It stands to (my) reason that when a too-lean code is triggered, the resultant AFR will be quite rich for at least a few moments, perhaps longer. What do you think?

That means the readout on the Digital Technician will always be within the range from 90% to 110%?

So if I were to modify my exhaust system, with the resultant VEs being non-linearly different from those programmed-in, the AFVs could easily be expected to move around on a rather continual basis. And since the AFVs are effective across-the-board, my open-loop AFRs could be expected to be different from one time to the next I hit them, depending on where i hit them from. Right?

The ramifications of the (x)IEDs are that they, at least with an all-stock bike, effectively lower all the open-loop AFRs (which were not too high from the factory). Right?

I would think a high-level mathematician might get a kick out of trying to derive all the possible combinations of resultant open-loop AFR when the IEDs are combined with (un-remapped-for) intake/exhaust changes, but even somebody who spends a great deal of time in Vegas might want to shy away from the odds on rolling those dice against the house. Would you agree?

But their task is eased somewhat initially by the currently-stored AFV, no doubt.

The AFV is retained even when the ECU is removed from all power, correct?

I understand it can be reset to 100% with the Digital Technician. Can late versions of the SERT software alter it, too? Does it happen automatically upon loading a new map? I sure hope so to either or both, else how could a preliminary VE table adjustment be performed. Or how could meaningful (and immediate) changes to the table be made?

Oh, here is a question I would love to hear your opinion on:

If I took my bike in to get a PC-III installed and mapped on the dyno, when I put the O2 eliminators in place (off-line, of course), does the AFV then stay at whatever value it was when I rode in or does it migrate to some other (default?) value? If it was at 90% and the custom PC-III map was generated, would I have to increase my PC-III map values by 10% if I were to later have the AFV reset to 100%? (I am thinking yes)

How good would the map be for someone with the same components, but with an AFV of 110%? (I am thinking it would be way lean for them)

 

Enough already. That's so far off topic of what the thread is all about.
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PM each other... start your own thread. Last time I looked it was Nightrider 02 IED's Field test.
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&nbsp\\;Please take it elsewhere. &nbsp\\;

 

I jokingly want to call you out on that just a little. While the XIEDs (such as they particularly exist) may have not been invented yet, the specific concept dates back many years, as no doubt could be discovered with a few minutes at google.

While I do not agree with the end result, or even the premise in most cases, I have to be realistic. Please do not think that I never practice civil disobedience just because I bring this up.

I believe that any one of us could technically get fined today just for having even a set of IEDs, much less an FP, installed on a road-going engine. I really hope it does not happen, but would not be surprised to see the day not too far away when inspections will be regularly performed. Not just sniffing exhaust, but seeing that everything bears the proper stamp and is in an unmodified state, too. This is already in the EPA regs as of (I believe) 2002. They are merely not being enforced at the private level yet.

This means if you modify the engine of any current device/vehicle/tool, for any purpose other than competition (a loophole which may not last indefinitely), then you have legally created a new product which is supposed to be submitted for certification. The stock bike, chainsaw, lawnmower, etc. has already gone through that process and therefore can bear the stamp of approval. I understand it takes several tens of thousands of dollars to gain such sound/exhaust emissions certification. H-D has already done this for some specific combinations of intake/exhaust/download.

A small outdoor power equipment firm here in the little podunk town where I live will not work on any emissions-related portion of any EPA-approved tool if it has been modified unless they can put it all back to the certified state first (at the customer's expense). They do not want to get hit with a $15,000 fine! This is in the middle of the mid-west.

I am guessing about some of the very particulars of just exactly what the stock Delphi ECU does in some respects, but the rest really is not guessing and theory. It is how these devices both work together.

I will not be trying a set of even the normalIEDs. I already have a PC-III. In order to accommodate the IEDs I would have to spend a fair amount of time on a dyno. The cost of the IEDs, the dyno, my time, plus the already-incurred cost of the PC-III would all add up well beyond a SERT, and probably beyond the Daytona Twin-tec wide-band replacement EMS, which is currently what I plan to end up with eventually anyway.

 

Heywood, he doesn't care about respecting the rules of the forum and has no concept what thread Hi-jacking means.&nbsp\\;
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This thread which hurt no one and helped many will fall by the wayside if he has his way.&nbsp\\;

 

I do care, and this is pertinent to the discussion, if only tangentally.