Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
#1451
05-11-2008 | 09:03 PM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: RE:IED'S
ORIGINAL: marvincbr
Well, I have just over 10k on the bike now and I can't say I have ever noticed the rear cylinder turning off and I have been in slower than parade traffic in rush hour getting out of downtown Chi town. Would there be more info on this in the service manual?
Well, I have just over 10k on the bike now and I can't say I have ever noticed the rear cylinder turning off and I have been in slower than parade traffic in rush hour getting out of downtown Chi town. Would there be more info on this in the service manual?
I found on my 08, in stock configuration(Stage 1 DL, a/c, pipes), it kicked in after about 15 mins idling in the garage.
Nicker1952:
I'll bet they lighten up once you change the exhaust. Your getting more air in, but it can't get out. It's a big jump from 14.2:1 that the IED's run to 13.8:1 of the XIED's.
#1452
05-11-2008 | 09:08 PM
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 602
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From: Long Beach,Wa.
#1453
05-11-2008 | 10:32 PM
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#1454
05-11-2008 | 10:46 PM
RE: RE:IED'S
Finally had a chance to put a few miles on today. The ambient temp was 57-60 degrees so I can't really judge the cooling effect of the XIED vs. IED yet. There were some noteworthy observations though.
With the IED's:
1. much better throttle response.
2. much better idle (more stable, less hunting)
3. engine temps were lower under the same riding conditions (measured with IR temp gun)
4. less engine surge at cruise speeds.
With the XIED's:
1. same throttle response as IED's.
2. idle has improved more yet, and settles in quicker on warm start up.
3. no surge noted in any gear at speeds between 10-45 mph.
4.exhaust note at cruise is actually more subdued. Now I think my pipes are too quiet!
5. more soot at tip of pipes in 20 miles than I had seen in 500 miles while stock.
6. no shake whatsoever if rpm's drop below 2000.
About observation #6. No, I didn't lug the engine. But I found that I didn't need to downshift to keep the bike from shaking itself apart if engine speed dropped below 2000 rpm for brief periods. It was noticeably rough stock and with IED's. Same holds true about coming to a stop. Nomore shake, rattle, and roll when you pull in the clutch while stopping.
When I installed the IED's I had a very sluggish throttle response. I presumed that the addition of the Bub 7's had prompted the ecm to compensate so I pulled the ecm fuse hoping it would go back to default. Seemed to be right. Throttle response was now crisp and just as Cruiser had described his results. So I went through the same process when I installed the XIED's. Throttle response felt identical. I never got that "IED's on steroids" sensation that Cruiser described. I was left a bit disappointed about that part. No doubt it's far better than stock. I just did not note any perceptable increase in power or roll-on beyond what the IED's provided. That said, there is more than enough benefit to make them worthwhile. Especially if engine temps drop even more, which I expect they will. Don't know how they wouldn't with the richer afr.
With the IED's:
1. much better throttle response.
2. much better idle (more stable, less hunting)
3. engine temps were lower under the same riding conditions (measured with IR temp gun)
4. less engine surge at cruise speeds.
With the XIED's:
1. same throttle response as IED's.
2. idle has improved more yet, and settles in quicker on warm start up.
3. no surge noted in any gear at speeds between 10-45 mph.
4.exhaust note at cruise is actually more subdued. Now I think my pipes are too quiet!
5. more soot at tip of pipes in 20 miles than I had seen in 500 miles while stock.
6. no shake whatsoever if rpm's drop below 2000.
About observation #6. No, I didn't lug the engine. But I found that I didn't need to downshift to keep the bike from shaking itself apart if engine speed dropped below 2000 rpm for brief periods. It was noticeably rough stock and with IED's. Same holds true about coming to a stop. Nomore shake, rattle, and roll when you pull in the clutch while stopping.
When I installed the IED's I had a very sluggish throttle response. I presumed that the addition of the Bub 7's had prompted the ecm to compensate so I pulled the ecm fuse hoping it would go back to default. Seemed to be right. Throttle response was now crisp and just as Cruiser had described his results. So I went through the same process when I installed the XIED's. Throttle response felt identical. I never got that "IED's on steroids" sensation that Cruiser described. I was left a bit disappointed about that part. No doubt it's far better than stock. I just did not note any perceptable increase in power or roll-on beyond what the IED's provided. That said, there is more than enough benefit to make them worthwhile. Especially if engine temps drop even more, which I expect they will. Don't know how they wouldn't with the richer afr.
#1455
05-11-2008 | 11:12 PM
RE: RE:IED'S
I have a question for those who are running the XIED's. Are you seeing a big difference in color between the front and rear spark plugs. I pulled mine right after coasting to a stop to see if they looked darker. They now have some color to them. However, the front is much darker.
I know the front cylinder is going to run cooler at any given time. Mine typically runs 40-50 degrees cooler in the front. Is that the reason for seeing darker deposits on the front plug or should I be looking for other reasons? I have gone up and down the exhaust for leaks. No leaks at the O2's or head pipe flanges. Definite leaks at the muffler clamp for both sides. But it's too far away from either O2 sensor to be a factor.
Sorry if I'm getting to obsessed with any of this. I just want the best and most consistent performance I can get from what I've got.
I know the front cylinder is going to run cooler at any given time. Mine typically runs 40-50 degrees cooler in the front. Is that the reason for seeing darker deposits on the front plug or should I be looking for other reasons? I have gone up and down the exhaust for leaks. No leaks at the O2's or head pipe flanges. Definite leaks at the muffler clamp for both sides. But it's too far away from either O2 sensor to be a factor.
Sorry if I'm getting to obsessed with any of this. I just want the best and most consistent performance I can get from what I've got.
#1456
05-11-2008 | 11:33 PM
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Arizona
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: nickers1952
I've been following this thread for quite some time, so I thought I'd add my experiences.
I have been riding Harleys for quite a while, and have done extensive mods on all of them (I used to build race cars and motors). My previous bike was an '04 FLHRCI that got a 95", head work, cams, DOherty PP, V&H, PCIII, pistons, etc...that ran very well. My point is that I know the basics of these motors. I also know to monitor spark plugs for a good real-time indicator as to what is happenning in the combustion chamber.
More to the point - I sold the RKC and now have a new '08 FLTRI that I will keep basically stock until I see if this Chinese crankshaft stays in one piece, or decides to "twist", take out the oil pump, and grenade the motor (known problem). When riding the new RG home I immediately noticed the extreme heat being generated by this new '96 motor. I live in central Texas, so heat is a major consideration in these air cooled motors here. After several hundred miles I pulled the plugs, and was not suprised to see them coated in a white ash, indicating a very lean condition. Wanting to keep the warranty, and my motor, intact for a while, I researched the heat issue and found the Nightrider site. I purchased a set of the IED's, gaped the plugs to .040, and rode a few more hundred miles . Pleasantly, the plugs were showing a much better combustion environment, the motor ran better in many ways, and my right leg had quit sizzling. I considered this an acceptable way to save my motor and warranty, since the IED's could easily be removed for any visits to the dealer.
So along comes Steve with the "better" XIED's. Not being able to leave a motor undisturbed, I installed the XIED's, and a Ness Big Sucker Stage 1. I selected this air cleaner because it has the chrome 1 piece backing plate with integral vents, and it flows a little more cfm. Knowing that more air = leaner combustion condition, I hoped that Steve's XIED's might "equal" things out. (still stock exhaust). I ran several hundred miles with the "new" setup, mostly 40 - 70 mph with very little idling, none in the final 40 miles, and checked the plugs again at the end of the ride. And to answer the obvious - yes I shut the motot off immediately after stopping, it did not idle for than 15 seconds.
Here's where it gets interesting - the plugs were DARK - not damp, but certainly indicating a rich AFR. With the new AC, I was expecting a semi-lean or good AFR. The bike ran good, but I'm not sure it was better than the IED's with stock AC. Logic would say that since the XIED's allow the bike to run a little richer than the IED's, an AC that flows a little more air (leaner), would offset the richer condition, and the bike should run better, or at the least not richer than it was. Mileage dropped from approx. 45mpg to 42mpg, so the XIED's were doing their job. I was riding solo, so I don't know if the exhaust "smelled" rich.
I found this to be interesting since getting these new motors to run "rich" without completely bypassing the O2 sensors seems to be impossible.
The next step will be slip-ons to see if that will "lean" out the AFR a little more.
Thanks for all of the great information everyone has disseminated in this thread.
Bill
Austin
I've been following this thread for quite some time, so I thought I'd add my experiences.
I have been riding Harleys for quite a while, and have done extensive mods on all of them (I used to build race cars and motors). My previous bike was an '04 FLHRCI that got a 95", head work, cams, DOherty PP, V&H, PCIII, pistons, etc...that ran very well. My point is that I know the basics of these motors. I also know to monitor spark plugs for a good real-time indicator as to what is happenning in the combustion chamber.
More to the point - I sold the RKC and now have a new '08 FLTRI that I will keep basically stock until I see if this Chinese crankshaft stays in one piece, or decides to "twist", take out the oil pump, and grenade the motor (known problem). When riding the new RG home I immediately noticed the extreme heat being generated by this new '96 motor. I live in central Texas, so heat is a major consideration in these air cooled motors here. After several hundred miles I pulled the plugs, and was not suprised to see them coated in a white ash, indicating a very lean condition. Wanting to keep the warranty, and my motor, intact for a while, I researched the heat issue and found the Nightrider site. I purchased a set of the IED's, gaped the plugs to .040, and rode a few more hundred miles . Pleasantly, the plugs were showing a much better combustion environment, the motor ran better in many ways, and my right leg had quit sizzling. I considered this an acceptable way to save my motor and warranty, since the IED's could easily be removed for any visits to the dealer.
So along comes Steve with the "better" XIED's. Not being able to leave a motor undisturbed, I installed the XIED's, and a Ness Big Sucker Stage 1. I selected this air cleaner because it has the chrome 1 piece backing plate with integral vents, and it flows a little more cfm. Knowing that more air = leaner combustion condition, I hoped that Steve's XIED's might "equal" things out. (still stock exhaust). I ran several hundred miles with the "new" setup, mostly 40 - 70 mph with very little idling, none in the final 40 miles, and checked the plugs again at the end of the ride. And to answer the obvious - yes I shut the motot off immediately after stopping, it did not idle for than 15 seconds.
Here's where it gets interesting - the plugs were DARK - not damp, but certainly indicating a rich AFR. With the new AC, I was expecting a semi-lean or good AFR. The bike ran good, but I'm not sure it was better than the IED's with stock AC. Logic would say that since the XIED's allow the bike to run a little richer than the IED's, an AC that flows a little more air (leaner), would offset the richer condition, and the bike should run better, or at the least not richer than it was. Mileage dropped from approx. 45mpg to 42mpg, so the XIED's were doing their job. I was riding solo, so I don't know if the exhaust "smelled" rich.
I found this to be interesting since getting these new motors to run "rich" without completely bypassing the O2 sensors seems to be impossible.
The next step will be slip-ons to see if that will "lean" out the AFR a little more.
Thanks for all of the great information everyone has disseminated in this thread.
Bill
Austin
#1457
05-12-2008 | 12:51 AM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
05 LowRider:
Nice bike....NICE PIPES...lol
Are you running TD's ,slip-on's, or cross over? You've got to be real careful if they're the True Duels. Those pipes are a different animal when it comes to getting the AFR right. It's already cost Bub $127 for a heat shield.
The front being darker is expected due to it getting more air and being cooler. I found the XIED's to be better in 6th gear roll ons than the IED's. I also found the "kick down and go" feeling better.
I think a couple of pages back Rider57 or cruiser listed the best AFR for HP and then Torque. I feel a lot more bottom end grunt than before. I just came back from a night ride and one of the things that caught my attention was how my front end came up. I was checking out the light pattern on the HID's. I had also put my rear shocks at 10 lbs.
Needless to say, the poor guy in the car 30 feet in front of me was probably seeing two spot for a bit. I never notice this before. The IED's were great, these XIED's are way better to me. They fit my set up to a tee. I'm not even disappointed with the V&H Fuel Pak. The bike runs so well and pulls so nicely, I'm not changing a thing. I don't even care what temperature I'm running.
Nothing wrong with being obsessed LowRider. You've just caught the bug and you want to know more. I still have a hard time believing how well these XIED's work. I didn't think Steve could top the IED's.
The biggest kicker is how the bike feels when you take them off. I didn't like it very much.
Cruiser.......LMAO as soon as I seen it...nice
Nice bike....NICE PIPES...lol
Are you running TD's ,slip-on's, or cross over? You've got to be real careful if they're the True Duels. Those pipes are a different animal when it comes to getting the AFR right. It's already cost Bub $127 for a heat shield.
The front being darker is expected due to it getting more air and being cooler. I found the XIED's to be better in 6th gear roll ons than the IED's. I also found the "kick down and go" feeling better.
I think a couple of pages back Rider57 or cruiser listed the best AFR for HP and then Torque. I feel a lot more bottom end grunt than before. I just came back from a night ride and one of the things that caught my attention was how my front end came up. I was checking out the light pattern on the HID's. I had also put my rear shocks at 10 lbs.
Needless to say, the poor guy in the car 30 feet in front of me was probably seeing two spot for a bit. I never notice this before. The IED's were great, these XIED's are way better to me. They fit my set up to a tee. I'm not even disappointed with the V&H Fuel Pak. The bike runs so well and pulls so nicely, I'm not changing a thing. I don't even care what temperature I'm running.
Nothing wrong with being obsessed LowRider. You've just caught the bug and you want to know more. I still have a hard time believing how well these XIED's work. I didn't think Steve could top the IED's.
The biggest kicker is how the bike feels when you take them off. I didn't like it very much.
Cruiser.......LMAO as soon as I seen it...nice
#1458
05-12-2008 | 04:06 AM
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 12
From: Shorewood IL
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: heywood727
05 LowRider:
Nice bike....NICE PIPES...lol
Are you running TD's ,slip-on's, or cross over? You've got to be real careful if they're the True Duels. Those pipes are a different animal when it comes to getting the AFR right. It's already cost Bub $127 for a heat shield.
05 LowRider:
Nice bike....NICE PIPES...lol
Are you running TD's ,slip-on's, or cross over? You've got to be real careful if they're the True Duels. Those pipes are a different animal when it comes to getting the AFR right. It's already cost Bub $127 for a heat shield.
#1459
05-12-2008 | 09:56 AM
#1460
05-12-2008 | 10:54 AM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
[quote]ORIGINAL: marvincbr
How can the AFR be changed (get it right) if the only addition was the XIED's? I am running true duels on mine without the use of a fuel pack or other. Would it be by changing the slip ons to get the righr back pressure? Or is there something else besides going back to the stock cross over?
The Bub7's are bigger than normal true duels. 1 7/8 vs 1 3/4 like most. That together with HD not having a TD map for the stage 1 to boot on the 08's is the difference.
They didn't want to try an older map because of the FBW set up in the 08's and they probably won't try it due to EPA concerns. I thought of that as well. All the tuners are playing catch up with the FBW system. Most of them are just starting to come out now, and even those look like there are a few bugs that have to be worked out according to some of the other threads I've glanced at.
The 07's still had the race version of the map avalable to them. You should be fine. Not as lucky with the 08's.The lack of a TD download + the difference of the BUB pipe is the difference. What I was talking about is really specific to 08's and BUB TD's.
The pipes can have a an effect on the AFR when coupled with the Hi-flow A/C. Stock pipes with the hi-flow will put it on the richer side. Same with stock a/c with aftermarket pipes.
How can the AFR be changed (get it right) if the only addition was the XIED's? I am running true duels on mine without the use of a fuel pack or other. Would it be by changing the slip ons to get the righr back pressure? Or is there something else besides going back to the stock cross over?
They didn't want to try an older map because of the FBW set up in the 08's and they probably won't try it due to EPA concerns. I thought of that as well. All the tuners are playing catch up with the FBW system. Most of them are just starting to come out now, and even those look like there are a few bugs that have to be worked out according to some of the other threads I've glanced at.
The 07's still had the race version of the map avalable to them. You should be fine. Not as lucky with the 08's.The lack of a TD download + the difference of the BUB pipe is the difference. What I was talking about is really specific to 08's and BUB TD's.
The pipes can have a an effect on the AFR when coupled with the Hi-flow A/C. Stock pipes with the hi-flow will put it on the richer side. Same with stock a/c with aftermarket pipes.