Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
#1361
05-09-2008 | 01:06 AM
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: jlb0038
Labfreak,
Here is my layman version of the 2 - 1 and the XIEDs. I am running a D&D Fat Cat. At first I also was using the K&N air kit. The XIEDs did make it run alot smoother than the PCIII, but I did noticed some surging and higher temps, which was to be expected. I then took off the K&N and put back on the stock A/C. The surging was gone and the throttle response was great, but I was still getting alot of heat. More than I was comfortable with. 275 on the front and 294 on the rear and 325 on the front while it was idling. I have not thrown any codes though. It is my unprofessional opinion, after checking temps for the past week,a 2 - 1 system just leans it out too much even for the XIEDs. I just put back on my PCIII and you can really feel the difference in the heat. Its unfortunate, because I also lost the smoothness of the XIEDs. I have been agonizing over whether I should switch to stock headers with slip ons and the XIEDs, or keep the Fat Cat and PCIII. The XIEDs were so smooth and throttle response was so good, but I love the Fat Cat exhaust.
J.B.
Labfreak,
Here is my layman version of the 2 - 1 and the XIEDs. I am running a D&D Fat Cat. At first I also was using the K&N air kit. The XIEDs did make it run alot smoother than the PCIII, but I did noticed some surging and higher temps, which was to be expected. I then took off the K&N and put back on the stock A/C. The surging was gone and the throttle response was great, but I was still getting alot of heat. More than I was comfortable with. 275 on the front and 294 on the rear and 325 on the front while it was idling. I have not thrown any codes though. It is my unprofessional opinion, after checking temps for the past week,a 2 - 1 system just leans it out too much even for the XIEDs. I just put back on my PCIII and you can really feel the difference in the heat. Its unfortunate, because I also lost the smoothness of the XIEDs. I have been agonizing over whether I should switch to stock headers with slip ons and the XIEDs, or keep the Fat Cat and PCIII. The XIEDs were so smooth and throttle response was so good, but I love the Fat Cat exhaust.
J.B.
may be you can get the best of both world ....
the Xieds would take care of the closed loop and the PCIII would add the little extra fuel you need to cool the heat....
#1362
05-09-2008 | 01:16 AM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
Rawhide07:
I wouldn't worry about it. With the XIED's on, as far as the ECM's concerned, it's at 14.7:1. It you put on a different slipon on, it'll see it's a little lean and pump more fuel in to get it back to where it thinks it's normal or called for AFR. The other way if the pipe is more restrictive. You should just have to ride it a bit so it can relearn it's curve. Not a lot different than riding at the ocean and then through the mountains.
lilwilly:
I believe the Stage 1 flash is just a canned map suited to your set-up. They just take in account what you have on it. eg. Hi-flow, crossover, staggered SE pipes....etc. They pull a map from their data base and flash the ECM to get it close to what their Tech's figure the tables should be at. Your right in assumeing that it's a pre-programmed change.
Keep in mind that HD does not have a True Duel set-up in their 08 maps. If it's a warranty concern, take the 5 min's and take off the IED's/Xied's before you head into the dealership. Could you leave them on for a Stage 1 flash?? Yes. Thestock ECMdoesn't have much for data logging.
I would take them off just to keep the questions down. If they knew theywere installed, it might give them ammo incase you got into a pissing match with MOCO or the dealership.
I wouldn't worry about it. With the XIED's on, as far as the ECM's concerned, it's at 14.7:1. It you put on a different slipon on, it'll see it's a little lean and pump more fuel in to get it back to where it thinks it's normal or called for AFR. The other way if the pipe is more restrictive. You should just have to ride it a bit so it can relearn it's curve. Not a lot different than riding at the ocean and then through the mountains.
lilwilly:
I believe the Stage 1 flash is just a canned map suited to your set-up. They just take in account what you have on it. eg. Hi-flow, crossover, staggered SE pipes....etc. They pull a map from their data base and flash the ECM to get it close to what their Tech's figure the tables should be at. Your right in assumeing that it's a pre-programmed change.
Keep in mind that HD does not have a True Duel set-up in their 08 maps. If it's a warranty concern, take the 5 min's and take off the IED's/Xied's before you head into the dealership. Could you leave them on for a Stage 1 flash?? Yes. Thestock ECMdoesn't have much for data logging.
I would take them off just to keep the questions down. If they knew theywere installed, it might give them ammo incase you got into a pissing match with MOCO or the dealership.
#1363
05-09-2008 | 01:24 AM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: I'm in Hog Heaven Now
I agree. If your not running the PCIII race, you should be able to run both.
Steve Mullen Nightrider
You can use the O2 IED's with virtually every piggy back controller on the market, every HD download available or SE Race Tuner.There are a few combinations that don't make sense (mainly SERT with the O2 IED's because SERT can accomplish the same in software) and some different ways of tuning (like not using the o2 eliminators in the TFI or PCIII race), but the O2 IED's are essentially "invisible" to all these upgrades.
You can use the O2 IED's with virtually every piggy back controller on the market, every HD download available or SE Race Tuner.There are a few combinations that don't make sense (mainly SERT with the O2 IED's because SERT can accomplish the same in software) and some different ways of tuning (like not using the o2 eliminators in the TFI or PCIII race), but the O2 IED's are essentially "invisible" to all these upgrades.
#1366
05-09-2008 | 01:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,205
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From: Arizona
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
LilWilly,
If your getting the XIED, save your $200 and skip the download. Here's some interesting reading, I'm not the author.
There is no harm in doing the Stage 1 download. But I always go back to Harley's statements in the Fall 2006 issue of the Enthusiast Magazine. It stated that the TC96 engines would make 7-11% more power after exhaust/air cleaner upgrades without having to do any EFI remapping. This was Harley-Davidsons statement. While they were primarily referring to their own exhaust and SE air cleaner upgrade, most exhaust systems are going to react in an identical manner.[/align][/align]The simple truth is that the open loop AFR values in the HD ECM are mostly in the 13.5 to 12.5 range. Even with the improvement if exhaust flow and air cleaner flow, these AFR's are not going to go below 13.8 to 12.8 (or about .3 leaner). I've already seen data from Andy that verifies this. So there is no way the engine ever goes to lean to hurt itself. If you check recommend AFR from experts with more credibility than me, you find their recommendations generally are as follows:[/align]13.5:1 AFR produces the best torque[/align]12.5:1 AFR produces the best HP[/align][/align]So this means to maximize power output in any engine, your mid range AFR should be 13.5 through the torque peak, then you richen the mixture gradually to 12.5:1 at the max HP RPM. So any AFR between these two ranges is quite adequate for street work.[/align][/align]So the basic facts are:[/align]-The IED/XiED have proven to be a reliable, low cost way to improve the closed loop AFR.[/align]-Richer closed loop AFR's in the 14.2 to 13.8:1 AFR range provide a variety of benefits such as: Lower engine/exhaust temp, smoother idle, better acceleration, reduced/eliminate engine ping, etc.[/align]-The average rider spends 95-98+% of their time in the closed loop mode, so only 2-5% of the time does the engine every enter open loop. And even if it enters open loop, the time frame is less than 10-15 seconds.[/align]-Harley-Davidson has already documented that the Open Loop ECM settings will support 7-11% more HP. This is with no remapping. This shows that the Wide Open ThrottleOEM fuel map is plenty rich.[/align]-The HD Stage 1 map isprimarily a change to the rev limit of the engine and an update to the VE values of the ECM. Changesto AFR values are pretty much prevented by EPA regulations. SotheStage 1should restore a true 12.5 WOT AFR.But the OEM fuel map in the same circumstances isin the 13.0 to 12.8 range. The difference in powerwill only be seen on a dyno.[/align]-Riders who did the Stage 1 download pretty much agree that they saw little or no improvement in theirdaily riding experience. When they installed the IED or XiED, they saw significant differences.[/align][/align]So those are the majorFACTS.[/align][/ali
If your getting the XIED, save your $200 and skip the download. Here's some interesting reading, I'm not the author.
There is no harm in doing the Stage 1 download. But I always go back to Harley's statements in the Fall 2006 issue of the Enthusiast Magazine. It stated that the TC96 engines would make 7-11% more power after exhaust/air cleaner upgrades without having to do any EFI remapping. This was Harley-Davidsons statement. While they were primarily referring to their own exhaust and SE air cleaner upgrade, most exhaust systems are going to react in an identical manner.[/align][/align]The simple truth is that the open loop AFR values in the HD ECM are mostly in the 13.5 to 12.5 range. Even with the improvement if exhaust flow and air cleaner flow, these AFR's are not going to go below 13.8 to 12.8 (or about .3 leaner). I've already seen data from Andy that verifies this. So there is no way the engine ever goes to lean to hurt itself. If you check recommend AFR from experts with more credibility than me, you find their recommendations generally are as follows:[/align]13.5:1 AFR produces the best torque[/align]12.5:1 AFR produces the best HP[/align][/align]So this means to maximize power output in any engine, your mid range AFR should be 13.5 through the torque peak, then you richen the mixture gradually to 12.5:1 at the max HP RPM. So any AFR between these two ranges is quite adequate for street work.[/align][/align]So the basic facts are:[/align]-The IED/XiED have proven to be a reliable, low cost way to improve the closed loop AFR.[/align]-Richer closed loop AFR's in the 14.2 to 13.8:1 AFR range provide a variety of benefits such as: Lower engine/exhaust temp, smoother idle, better acceleration, reduced/eliminate engine ping, etc.[/align]-The average rider spends 95-98+% of their time in the closed loop mode, so only 2-5% of the time does the engine every enter open loop. And even if it enters open loop, the time frame is less than 10-15 seconds.[/align]-Harley-Davidson has already documented that the Open Loop ECM settings will support 7-11% more HP. This is with no remapping. This shows that the Wide Open ThrottleOEM fuel map is plenty rich.[/align]-The HD Stage 1 map isprimarily a change to the rev limit of the engine and an update to the VE values of the ECM. Changesto AFR values are pretty much prevented by EPA regulations. SotheStage 1should restore a true 12.5 WOT AFR.But the OEM fuel map in the same circumstances isin the 13.0 to 12.8 range. The difference in powerwill only be seen on a dyno.[/align]-Riders who did the Stage 1 download pretty much agree that they saw little or no improvement in theirdaily riding experience. When they installed the IED or XiED, they saw significant differences.[/align][/align]So those are the majorFACTS.[/align][/ali
#1367
05-09-2008 | 02:40 AM
Stage I
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
I have a 2007 Fat Boy and am running a swet of Vance and Hines big shots staggered, High Flow air cleaner (pretty sure its an arlen ness big sucker) and I have the HD stage 1 download on my ECM. Im just curious as to wether the XIED's will work with my set up.
THANKS!
THANKS!
#1368
05-09-2008 | 04:03 AM
Novice
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
ORIGINAL: Rider57
ORIGINAL:Rider57
It's nominal (best) voltage is that.
You must know that from the voltage readings you have been taking and comparing to the AFR readings on your bike.
As you can see, they are related and vary according to each bike and the bias table applied at the tested load /rpm. Right?
ORIGINAL: wmw
With your simulators install you areseeing a fixed reading of 850mv?
ORIGINAL: Rider57
ORIGINAL:Rider57
I was invited to this thread.
The voltage is 850mv.
ORIGINAL: wmw
Why would you say that to me? Looking at your profile you havespend all your time on this topic?
I was just replying toyourquote!
Post the voltage reading and I'll explain them to you!
ORIGINAL: Rider57
That has nothing to do with the above posts.
We have tested this and THAT IS THE FIX as far as exhausts go.
If you install a 2 into 1 system and dont address the valve overlap issue with a cam, the 2 into 1 system WILL scavange the systemcausing it to run lean. PERIOD.
Dont make statements that you have absolutly no knowledge of.
That has nothing to do with the above posts.
We have tested this and THAT IS THE FIX as far as exhausts go.
If you install a 2 into 1 system and dont address the valve overlap issue with a cam, the 2 into 1 system WILL scavange the systemcausing it to run lean. PERIOD.
Dont make statements that you have absolutly no knowledge of.
I was just replying toyourquote!
Post the voltage reading and I'll explain them to you!
I was invited to this thread.
The voltage is 850mv.
It's nominal (best) voltage is that.
You must know that from the voltage readings you have been taking and comparing to the AFR readings on your bike.
As you can see, they are related and vary according to each bike and the bias table applied at the tested load /rpm. Right?
and what the simulated voltage is doing.
I have postedinformation in my other posts,but you don't seem to want to read the information.
You need to have a look at the voltage reading with a scope or accurate volt-meter(FLUKE-Meter).
#1369
05-09-2008 | 04:20 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 21
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From:
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
[quote]ORIGINAL: cruiser85257
LilWilly,
If your getting the XIED, save your $200 and skip the download. Here's some interesting reading, I'm not the author.
There is no harm in doing the Stage 1 download. But I always go back to Harley's statements in the Fall 2006 issue of the Enthusiast Magazine. It stated that the TC96 engines would make 7-11% more power after exhaust/air cleaner upgrades without having to do any EFI remapping. This was Harley-Davidsons statement. While they were primarily referring to their own exhaust and SE air cleaner upgrade, most exhaust systems are going to react in an identical manner.[/align][/align]The simple truth is that the open loop AFR values in the HD ECM are mostly in the 13.5 to 12.5 range. Even with the improvement if exhaust flow and air cleaner flow, these AFR's are not going to go below 13.8 to 12.8 (or about .3 leaner). I've already seen data from Andy that verifies this. So there is no way the engine ever goes to lean to hurt itself. If you check recommend AFR from experts with more credibility than me, you find their recommendations generally are as follows:[/align]13.5:1 AFR produces the best torque[/align]12.5:1 AFR produces the best HP[/align][/align]So this means to maximize power output in any engine, your mid range AFR should be 13.5 through the torque peak, then you richen the mixture gradually to 12.5:1 at the max HP RPM. So any AFR between these two ranges is quite adequate for street work.[/align][/align]So the basic facts are:[/align]-The IED/XiED have proven to be a reliable, low cost way to improve the closed loop AFR.[/align]-Richer closed loop AFR's in the 14.2 to 13.8:1 AFR range provide a variety of benefits such as: Lower engine/exhaust temp, smoother idle, better acceleration, reduced/eliminate engine ping, etc.[/align]-The average rider spends 95-98+% of their time in the closed loop mode, so only 2-5% of the time does the engine every enter open loop. And even if it enters open loop, the time frame is less than 10-15 seconds.[/align]-Harley-Davidson has already documented that the Open Loop ECM settings will support 7-11% more HP. This is with no remapping. This shows that the Wide Open ThrottleOEM fuel map is plenty rich.[/align]-The HD Stage 1 map isprimarily a change to the rev limit of the engine and an update to the VE values of the ECM. Changesto AFR values are pretty much prevented by EPA regulations. SotheStage 1should restore a true 12.5 WOT AFR.But the OEM fuel map in the same circumstances isin the 13.0 to 12.8 range. The difference in powerwill only be seen on a dyno.[/align]-Riders who did the Stage 1 download pretty much agree that they saw little or no improvement in theirdaily riding experience. When they installed the IED or XiED, they saw significant differences.[/align][/align]So those are the majorFACTS.[/align][font=arial][color=#0000ff][size=2][/si
LilWilly,
If your getting the XIED, save your $200 and skip the download. Here's some interesting reading, I'm not the author.
There is no harm in doing the Stage 1 download. But I always go back to Harley's statements in the Fall 2006 issue of the Enthusiast Magazine. It stated that the TC96 engines would make 7-11% more power after exhaust/air cleaner upgrades without having to do any EFI remapping. This was Harley-Davidsons statement. While they were primarily referring to their own exhaust and SE air cleaner upgrade, most exhaust systems are going to react in an identical manner.[/align][/align]The simple truth is that the open loop AFR values in the HD ECM are mostly in the 13.5 to 12.5 range. Even with the improvement if exhaust flow and air cleaner flow, these AFR's are not going to go below 13.8 to 12.8 (or about .3 leaner). I've already seen data from Andy that verifies this. So there is no way the engine ever goes to lean to hurt itself. If you check recommend AFR from experts with more credibility than me, you find their recommendations generally are as follows:[/align]13.5:1 AFR produces the best torque[/align]12.5:1 AFR produces the best HP[/align][/align]So this means to maximize power output in any engine, your mid range AFR should be 13.5 through the torque peak, then you richen the mixture gradually to 12.5:1 at the max HP RPM. So any AFR between these two ranges is quite adequate for street work.[/align][/align]So the basic facts are:[/align]-The IED/XiED have proven to be a reliable, low cost way to improve the closed loop AFR.[/align]-Richer closed loop AFR's in the 14.2 to 13.8:1 AFR range provide a variety of benefits such as: Lower engine/exhaust temp, smoother idle, better acceleration, reduced/eliminate engine ping, etc.[/align]-The average rider spends 95-98+% of their time in the closed loop mode, so only 2-5% of the time does the engine every enter open loop. And even if it enters open loop, the time frame is less than 10-15 seconds.[/align]-Harley-Davidson has already documented that the Open Loop ECM settings will support 7-11% more HP. This is with no remapping. This shows that the Wide Open ThrottleOEM fuel map is plenty rich.[/align]-The HD Stage 1 map isprimarily a change to the rev limit of the engine and an update to the VE values of the ECM. Changesto AFR values are pretty much prevented by EPA regulations. SotheStage 1should restore a true 12.5 WOT AFR.But the OEM fuel map in the same circumstances isin the 13.0 to 12.8 range. The difference in powerwill only be seen on a dyno.[/align]-Riders who did the Stage 1 download pretty much agree that they saw little or no improvement in theirdaily riding experience. When they installed the IED or XiED, they saw significant differences.[/align][/align]So those are the majorFACTS.[/align][font=arial][color=#0000ff][size=2][/si
#1370
05-09-2008 | 09:09 AM
Road Master
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
From: S/W Ohio
RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
Quote:
"There is a lot of typed wording here that is incorrect,if you are posting this information with the understanding that all the facts are correct, then you are miss leading people who don't understand how the Delphi system operates."
WMW, why so cryptic? If you disagree with the logic here why don't you just say what's on your mind or better yet clarify how our Delphi system works and where these guys are off the mark or mistaken?
Ride well,
Jim
"There is a lot of typed wording here that is incorrect,if you are posting this information with the understanding that all the facts are correct, then you are miss leading people who don't understand how the Delphi system operates."
WMW, why so cryptic? If you disagree with the logic here why don't you just say what's on your mind or better yet clarify how our Delphi system works and where these guys are off the mark or mistaken?
Ride well,
Jim