You bothare correct, but think about this, the VE tables are higher ( number value in percent)due to the fact thatyou change them to say your flowing more air...correct ... the STAGE 1.
But the ECM takes the VE table and tries to hit the AFR tables. So if you alter the VE table and do not change the AIR FUEL RATIO
on the block at the time that the ECM is looking at it...it will try to hit whatever the AFR is. So you can tell the ecm you are flowing what
ever you want at any given map/rpm range, but it will look at the air fuel ratio in the same block and adjust the injector pulse to acheve the
AFR set in the same block. So in short I increase my Air Flow with a free flowing air filter and pipes, but I dont change the air to fuel ratio...so
my ECM is still trying to hit say.... 14.7:1, so it adds mor fuel to the incomming increased air to acheve the 14.7:1 ratio.

So the Stage 1 download isSET FOR AINCREASE IN AIR FLOW but set to hit the target air fuel ratio that the EPA likes...your still lean!
The altered timming is what gives you the feel of more power...along with the fact that you can rev the engine higher witch is
another waste, if your cams are designed to acheve max HP & TQ at a lower RPM then what good are you doing going over that
RPM range???

O2 sensors are used to monitor the exaust to tell the ECM " this is what is coming out" , the ecm tries to correct it, then the O2 reports
back letting the ECM know if it added too much fuel or not enough fuel. They constantly argue with each other trying to acheve whatever is
programmed into the blocks in the AFR tables along with what the MAP sensor is reporting, and the Intake temp and the engine temp and the...
But the ECM is programed for a spacific AFR. Your Dyno guy can change the AFR tables, or you can with a SERT.

The purpose of the IED's...is to fool the ECM and making the report back to the ECM FALSE so now it is thinking it needs to add more fuel to hit the AFR table.
So this is why these $69 items are better than a Stage 1 download...they add more fuel o a lean running engine.

 

DB252 check this out and be grateful you didn't buy the Terminal Velocity II. https://www.hdforums.com/m_2905745/tm.htm

 

Hey Cruiser...

I think your probably right on putting them on as soon as I get the bike done. Might as well break it in with them on. Better to be too rich or richer than be lean.

Now as was mentioned.... I too am concerned about the warranty issue with messing with the ECM. I believe Steve has put up a big warning about this on his site.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/h...e_upgrades.htm

If it is true that the stage 1 not only changes the AFRbutthe timing as well, this would greatly benefit the IED's. I doubt that they will be re-flashing the ecm at the 1000k service and doubt that they would be able to see the IED's installed. Might not be a bad idea to be on the safe side to remove them before it goes in, and put them back on after the fact.

I'm not sure how many people are aware of this green light clause that Steve has written about? If these do the trick, great. If I'm not happy, I guess my next try will be the Cobra fi2000. At least you can dial them up and down... not like the TVII's. But Then again..no matter what you do with the Cobra...it's still using the narrowband O2 sensors. From what I've been able to pick up here, it's still not going to get you anything lower than 14.1 correct?? I might have to look at the LC1's. It's half the price of a Thunder Max with The auto tune feature.

I defiantly will stay away from them (TVII's) after what you've gone through. I can get a cobra from my Indy for $295 or the TV's for $600. I know I can get them cheaper on line....but I like to support my Indy when I can.

BarryGreen.....You had the Flash/ AC, and pipesdidn't you before ??

 

I was wondering......

Is there anyway we can accurately measure our own AFR outside of checking plugs. Any sort of gas detector that we might be able to buy to tell us where it is?? Say a digital CO2 detector? Get some stock readings and see if there is a difference before and after?? Verify the stock and IED's difference with a known from a dyno and compare the CO2 readings?

Any such animal exist??

 

I didn't quite get your first paragraph, but I think we're saying the same thing. With the stage 1 download, yes, you're still just as lean as you were as stock. What I was pointing out is that without the stage 1 download, you'd be running even more lean than stock.

No, the feeling of more power is because you're increasing the VEs in the VE table, which indirectly adds fuel to match the increased air flow. For example, suppose a block in the stock VE table has a value of 50 and the corresponding AFR block is 13.8. Now you add the stage 1 mods but no download. Now the VE in the block should be 60 since you're getting more air, but since there was no download, it's still set at 50. The AFR block is still set to 13.8, but that's not what your AFR will be. The VE of the engine has increased, but the ECM still delivers the fuel for the VE of 50 since that is what the table tells it to do. So you're getting more air but the same amount of fuel. You will not get an AFR of 13.8.

No, the dyno guy's job is to get the VE right (if you're using a SERT). If he gets the VE wrong, the AFR tables are useless.

Only in the closed loop areas.

 

TwinScan II

 

Wow... Thanks
Looks a little out of my league......but I'm persistent.

 

I've been following this thread with interest. My new Fat Bob doesn't arrive for another month, so I can't test these IED's myself yet, but in looking at the 08 Harley parts catolog I see that Harley offers 2 different oil caps with oil temp gauges on them (one is analog, the other is digital). Since these IED's were made by Nightrider to address the high engine temps associated with 06 and newer 96" motors I'm thinking a good check might be to invest in one of these oil caps with a temp gauge, and check the before and after oil temps with the IED's installed.

Ok, now under the "seemed like a good idea at the time" catagory, I just looked at the catalog again and it doesn't look like Harley offers a cap that fits the newer Dyna's.

 

Heywood, I am not sure about the new closed loop Cobra's. I know since their tied in with the narrowband sensor they can't accurately get below 14.2. The older ones that used an O2 sensor eliminator had three pots you adjusted almost like tuning a carb. But now they have the CL Cobra which doesn't block off the O2's.

Nightriders LC1's would be deadly accurate, but only in closed loop mode. Somewhere along the way you probably need a Race Tuner. Even if you don't have it tuned, it can help by loading a close map and with some guidance from up here you can change a few values and have a better running bike.

 

Snuffer HD's oil temp dipstick gauges are not cheap. Your better off to go to the auto parts store and for $20 buy an infrared thermometer.