Ok, now I'm really confused! You're saying that the SERT can't modify the AFR to less than 14.2:1 under any condition? But other tuners can?

 

I don't think I agree with any of this post. Sorry

Have you ever heard of the company Innovate. With a pair of these and the sert software you could let the stock ECU w/SERT computer dial the center of the map right in on what ever AFR you desire. With a simple wideband andtime on a dyno anyAFR curve you desire is very possible.

AW

 

Another Virtual Tuner, eh??????

You really don't understand how to tune do you?????

The SERT can and will allow you to run ANY desired AFR that you want in any throttle position/MAP load..... All you have to do is AFTER you have dialed in your VE's to match your Desired AFR, you set the Desired AFR to whatever you need for that particular Throttle/MAP zone.....

If you want your bike to run at 13.8 at 30% load at 15% throttle, you can program it for that.....

Albeit, your bike will be fat as heck, you'll probably pass most bikes, but you aint passing a filling station......

Please, don't bash what you do not KNOW or understand.....

 

Just to add to what Bob said....if you knew what you where doing with the SERT you can have the fuel so richit would run out the tail pipe.

To the reply to the knock sensor.....yes we turn it off only while tuning, you can't tune something that might be retarding the timing as your adjusting timing. When the tune is all dialed in you turn on the knock sensor and monitor them as you run the bike under a load to see if there is an area that sets off the sensor....then you go to that cell or cells to remove the detonation.

 

Look guys - I will never pretend to know everything about anything. I'm just smart enough to know how stupid I am, but I doknow this: 14.2 to 14.7AFR is lean for any motor, particularly air cooledand isa fact accepted industry wide.Autos have the luxury of water cooling to deal with this,Harley's don't...yet.
Question: if the SERT is so adjustable why are there so many CVO heat and performancerelated issues? Did HD simply miss the mark? One would think that their flagship performance models would be spot on.My virtually stock 88" '06 FLHX (TrueDuals, SE filter, PowerCommander)ran head to head with a buddy's '07 CVO Ultra until the dealermade 'adjustments'. He still has heat issues and hasreplaced the broken stock exhaust(with a D&D pipe) and now has leakage issues on the rear cylinder. He's not alone.Disappointed is not the word he uses. (In defense of the dealer he is satisfied that they have done everything that is within their power to do)
At the risk of sounding like a smartass (seriously, I'm not) why don't you guys offer seminars for tuning the SERT? The rest of us as well as 99% of the dealers could really use your expertise on fattening AFR,s while retaining NB sensors.If I thought the heatand powerissues could be tuned out with this unit I'd put one on my wife's '07 Heritage without hesitation. Until then I'm going with WB sensors and an aftermarket unit.

 

Are you opposed to taking it to a tuner? If not your power and heat issues could easily be resolved. I have a 07 FLHX with TD and a AN Big Sucker that was tuned using the SERT and I do not have power or heat issues. Quite frankly (although not recommended)you could tune the SERT in the same manner as a Power Commander - set the AFR to whatever across the board and update the VE. The SERT does not require the bike to run in closed loop.

I am going to set myself up here, but I think that a few of us (myself included sometimes) think we know how to tune a bike because we can update an Excel spreadhseet. At the end of the day however there is no substitute for an experienced dyno tuner who truly understands the motor and it's requirements based on the hardware configuration. While I doubt anyone thinks you are a smartass, you probably came across likea desktop dyno jockey instead of seeking or giving an informed opinion.

 

My apologies if I came across as a desktop tuner. In the future I will ask before shooting my one Barney Fife bullet.I do my best to research everything I can - that is why I'm reading this forum. If thereis a class on EFI I will be there - this is the future.While I realize there is more to the SERT and only a very savvy, experienced tuner can make full use of itbut they are few and far between. When I talk to the local dealer herethe response is "That's the way they run". A lot of owners around here have spent lots of dollars on dyno time and came away disappointed. All they wanted is for their pretty much stock bikes to run better.Some of us now are probably a little dyno-phobic.
I have modified (chipped) vehicles thatmake more powerthan stock plus they still get the samegreat mileage with no dyno time necessary. The ECM relearns according to the mods done.I wonder if there will ever be a Harley equivalent?

 

[quote]ORIGINAL: Leftcoaster

Look guys - I will never pretend to know everything about anything. I'm just smart enough to know how stupid I am, but I doknow this: 14.2 to 14.7AFR is lean for any motor, (More Internet mumbo-jumbo.... If you are idling at 14.7, you got a problem.... 'specially since the Closed Loop mode is about 14.4-6, and when you go out of Closed Loop, you are anywhere from 11.5 to 13... Kinda where you need it, either at idle or at WOT... CL is for cruising, light load running on the interstate, putting around on the street.... How is HEAT an issue when you are doing 75+ MPH on the I-80??????) particularly air cooledand isa fact accepted industry wide.(14.7:1 is more than an INDUSTRY ACCEPTED FACT, it is a proven ratio for power and performance... You get the best of both worlds... Reliable cruising and fuel economy, and when you romp on it, it goes fat enough to propel you without encountering a lag in response....)Autos have the luxury of water cooling to deal with this,Harley's don't...yet.(Never heard of the Revolution motor, huh????? They get hotter than 2 rats knocking boots in a wool sock..., BTW, the Desired AFR for a VRSC motor is no different than a Big Twin or XL/XB motor)
Question: if the SERT is so adjustable why are there so many CVO heat and performancerelated issues? (CVO's do NOT have SERT's married to them from the factory, they are EPA compliant programs that make it "Street Legal", essentially an 88/96" map bumped up to a 110" displacement....) Did HD simply miss the mark? One would think that their flagship performance models would be spot on.My virtually stock 88" '06 FLHX (TrueDuals, SE filter, PowerCommander)ran head to head with a buddy's '07 CVO Ultra until the dealermade 'adjustments'. (Clarify "Adjustments" please... did this mean a Tune with a Fuel Management device.... CVO's out of the crate are dogs.. Plain and simple... They are STREET BIKES... Not out of the crate race bikes....) He still has heat issues and hasreplaced the broken stock exhaust(with a D&D pipe) and now has leakage issues on the rear cylinder. (Maybe the Tech should do more than replace the Head Gasket and do a 2 step Torque, and inspect for blockage in the oil galley drain from the Head through the cam chest... I personally found a small piece of shop towel lodged in the drain valley of 1 bike myself... Guess what... NO MORE PROBLEM... Or it could be that the Liner has shifted slightly... ) He's not alone.Disappointed is not the word he uses. (In defense of the dealer he is satisfied that they have done everything that is within their power to do)
At the risk of sounding like a smartass (seriously, I'm not) why don't you guys offer seminars for tuning the SERT? The rest of us as well as 99% of the dealers (Dealerships have an opportunity to get their Tech's trained on the SERT, It's down to if they really WANT to do it..... that is the question you should ask your dealership... Myself and 1 other Tech are SERT trained, and Doc1 was trained by the same person... As far as seminars, there is a ton of info on this forum, along with quite a few others, that opens up the eyes to the TRUE capabilities of the SERT... Reading the Manual about 50 times or so also helps...) could really use your expertise on fattening AFR,s while retaining NB sensors.If I thought the heatand powerissues could be tuned out with this unit I'd put one on my wife's '07 Heritage without hesitation. (Sounds like you just need to find the right person to dial it in, one who was trained in how to use and understand the entire system....) Until then I'm going with WB sensors and an aftermarket u

 

Doc / Shovelhead,

Just to get something cleared-up here, let me ask a question about the SERT in the hands of a Harley-Davidson dealer technician working in the dealership;

Can this dealership tech tune the ECM outside of the EPA restrictions (e.g. correct the lean mixture, etc.) put into the ECM at the factory to meet EPA standards? In other words, I know that the bike has to be delivered in compliance, but once I have it and want aftermarket mods and work done, are the dealer's hands still tied to the EPA requirements.

Within the next couple of weeks I'm going to get the bike on a dyno. If a dealer can not tune the bike for best performance because his hands are tied by H-D and their compliance to the EPA mandates, I want to know so that I cantake my dongle toan indy for the best possible return on my investment (*****-out performance is not an issue - C'mon now, it's a Electra-Glide Touring bike and I just want it running at as close to peak as it can be).

What's your take on this? Thanks, always interested in your replies.