What Constitutes Knock in Logs
#31
Ok dude, we're speaking different languages here. I have no idea what I'm looking at with Mastertune. The thread starter was asking about PV LOGS and that's what I was helping him with. And for the 3rd time I will tell you with certainty that on TWIN CAM ECUs, knock retard DOES NOT persist after key-off cycle. On EVERY SINGLE logging run I've ever done, the only knock retard comes from the knock events recorded ON THAT RUN.
Last edited by Lonewolf176; 06-25-2024 at 10:32 PM.
#32
If you are seeing that with the adaptive knock retard zeroed out take out 1\3 of what you see just before it pulls the timing. Knock retard tends to overreact when pulling timing.
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Rusty Springs (06-26-2024)
#34
IF there were an additional adaptive knock retard happening in the background, I would see lower numbers in the spark advance columns, but I don't. They match up perfectly with my spark tables except if there's knock retard present.
#36
tough crowd here, I missed you guys
yes they are *different* things, and they show differently in different log elements! :P
for the M8 ECU:
knock retard is a short lived event, ECU detects the knocking using the new piezo sensors and pull timing quickly, and then adds it back (also quickly, unless knocking is detected again then it keeps going up and down - not good). in a properly tuned engine it should be a short lived event that happens on hot days under acceleration only.
adaptive knock retard is a totally different beast. the ECU decides based on 'X number of knock events' (those described above) that you are running **** fuel and pulls up to X degrees or timing pretty much forever. you can see this on logs as a permanent difference between your spark advance table and the actual spark advance. those small tables is what controls it, and I run my bike with them zeroed out, because if there is a problem with my timing I'd rather adjust it on the main tables.
Gas here in brazil is crap everywhere, but in the US where you can easily get different 'grades' of gas this adaptive thing is a good idea - I just wish it would reset faster, in my experience it never 'unlearns' (perhaps it does after 50 key-on cycles like mentioned before, but thats like an eternity).
yes they are *different* things, and they show differently in different log elements! :P
for the M8 ECU:
knock retard is a short lived event, ECU detects the knocking using the new piezo sensors and pull timing quickly, and then adds it back (also quickly, unless knocking is detected again then it keeps going up and down - not good). in a properly tuned engine it should be a short lived event that happens on hot days under acceleration only.
adaptive knock retard is a totally different beast. the ECU decides based on 'X number of knock events' (those described above) that you are running **** fuel and pulls up to X degrees or timing pretty much forever. you can see this on logs as a permanent difference between your spark advance table and the actual spark advance. those small tables is what controls it, and I run my bike with them zeroed out, because if there is a problem with my timing I'd rather adjust it on the main tables.
Gas here in brazil is crap everywhere, but in the US where you can easily get different 'grades' of gas this adaptive thing is a good idea - I just wish it would reset faster, in my experience it never 'unlearns' (perhaps it does after 50 key-on cycles like mentioned before, but thats like an eternity).
Last edited by b0fh; 07-01-2024 at 10:10 AM. Reason: wording
The following users liked this post:
Red Dragons (07-01-2024)
#37
tough crowd here, I missed you guys
yes they are *different* things, and they show differently in different log elements! :P
for the M8 ECU:
knock retard is a short lived event, ECU detects the knocking using the new piezo sensors and pull timing quickly, and then adds it back (also quickly, unless knocking is detected again then it keeps going up and down - not good). in a properly tuned engine it should be a short lived event that happens on hot days under acceleration only.
adaptive knock retard is a totally different beast. the ECU decides based on 'X number of knock events' (those described above) that you are running **** fuel and pulls up to X degrees or timing pretty much forever. you can see this on logs as a permanent difference between your spark advance table and the actual spark advance. those small tables is what controls it, and I run my bike with them zeroed out, because if there is a problem with my timing I'd rather adjust it on the main tables.
Gas here in brazil is crap everywhere, but in the US where you can easily get different 'grades' of gas this adaptive thing is a good idea - I just wish it would reset faster, in my experience it never 'unlearns' (perhaps it does after 50 key-on cycles like mentioned before, but thats like an eternity).
yes they are *different* things, and they show differently in different log elements! :P
for the M8 ECU:
knock retard is a short lived event, ECU detects the knocking using the new piezo sensors and pull timing quickly, and then adds it back (also quickly, unless knocking is detected again then it keeps going up and down - not good). in a properly tuned engine it should be a short lived event that happens on hot days under acceleration only.
adaptive knock retard is a totally different beast. the ECU decides based on 'X number of knock events' (those described above) that you are running **** fuel and pulls up to X degrees or timing pretty much forever. you can see this on logs as a permanent difference between your spark advance table and the actual spark advance. those small tables is what controls it, and I run my bike with them zeroed out, because if there is a problem with my timing I'd rather adjust it on the main tables.
Gas here in brazil is crap everywhere, but in the US where you can easily get different 'grades' of gas this adaptive thing is a good idea - I just wish it would reset faster, in my experience it never 'unlearns' (perhaps it does after 50 key-on cycles like mentioned before, but thats like an eternity).
#38
Once you have your timing dialled in I would turn the adaptive back on. Knock retard overreacts. It may pull 6 when you only need 1. If the adaptive has learned that 1, knock retard won't pull any. If you are not using the adaptive on the fuel side does that mean you are running an open loop tune? The closed loop part of the tune keeps your actual afr's or lambda on your target values.
#39
How do you know this?
Absolutely not, I use closed loop for short term trim, just no adaptive for long term. I don't see the point. I have my tune adjusted for where I live. Closed loop will take care of any minor day to day trim that is needed. I don't like that when adaptive is enabled it makes adjustments in areas of the map that I want to remain open loop, like idle.
If you are not using the adaptive on the fuel side does that mean you are running an open loop tune? The closed loop part of the tune keeps your actual afr's or lambda on your target values.
#40
But at least it's only for that key-on cycle, and it decays over time as I mentioned previously. You can control that in Retard Removal Percentage and Retard Removal Rate And you can also lower the maximum amount it can pull. That seems like sufficient knock protection to me.