bike in question is a 2017 XL1200CX... it has a powervision, mostly good but accelerating from low rpms (2000 or so) is not as smooth as I want... probably will never be but it was absolutely atrocious even from 2500 rpm on the stock map.

trying to perfect it this got me thinking and I went to look into the SEST library for the timing used in the maps, 176 is 2007-2013, 374 is for 2014-2016 and 415 is 2017-up. see picure below:



as you can see in 2014 harley drastically changed the timing in low RPMs - what used to be 20 degrees was dropped to 10, and even in 2250, 2500 rpm you see that it uses less timing. to add insult to injury the timing is unexpectedly weird, being retarded on low MAP and cruse, then advances a lot around 80kpa, then drops again... wtf were they thinking? the old map looks a lot more like what I expect a timing map to be, with advance dropping as load increases.

any idea why they did this? the engine itself did not change a bit in 2014 that I know of... is it safe to run off the 'old' timing map (actually I dont run any of those, but one that is kind of a middle ground, but looking at the old 176 map looks like I can add a lot of advance on lower RPMs and it should be safe to do so... right?) - or will I run into trouble due to something im not considering?

here's the same for the 883... looks like they did the same thing then added 5 degrees back... go figure.

 

I have looked at all those ignition timing tables and the SEPST 2012 XR1200X "race tune"
Changes in 2014-
CAN bus
Heated O2 sensors 12mm instead of 18 mm non heated in 2007-2013.
Closed loop temperature dropped to ~86 F compared to ~149 F in 2007-2013
Lambda based Air Fuel control compared to AFR
A lambda based "range" table for closed loop control, replacing the O2 BIAS F/R tables, ECU no longer uses the 14.6 to 1 AFR "switch" for closed loop control.
(the 2014+ tunes actually look to run richer, 14.2 - 14.6 AFR compared to the AFR based 2007-2013 tunes)
Idle Spark control tables for 2014+
A knock section in the tune
The ECU added a connection (Pin 9) listed as ION sense.
That is used by the Dephi ECU to monitor ignition events.
It has the ability to control ignition timing, although I have not seen any confirmation that the 2014-2016 or 2017+ Sportsters actually use that capability. yet.
Maybe you could use the PV to log advanced items:
Ion-Q Cylinder 1
Ion-Q Cylinder 2
Knock Count Front
Knock Count Rear
Front Spark Knock Retard
Rear Spark Knock Retard
(May be because of the temperature setting being around 462 F, seen in Dyno Jet 2014+ tunes.)
You might have to try a lower temp to get data.
You might also use the "Get Tune Copy of Current" to actually read your tune after flashing and save it to a PV slot (Copy of current tune).
Some tune items do not seem to always flash the same values as you have in your tune
I have not been able to change the Adaptive Fuel Factor minimum temperature and have it actually flash to the ECU is one example I have seen.
(Another is the O2 Bias tables, the PV tunes say to set it to 450 mv to richen the mixture but it only allows changes of 0.020, .450 will flash as .460 on my 2013 174 version tunes)
Delphi Ionization Current Sensing Ignition Subsystem
The Big Twin bikes do have knock control.

Also Check/compare the ignition timing by air temp, ET, and Head Temp tables.

My thoughts, the 2007-2013 ignition tables look closer to the 2006 and earlier Sportster ignition module tables where VOES was used for low load spark advance.
The 2014+ tunes likely had more development time, trying to meet newer emissions requirements. (EU 4 as an example), some International models got cats around 2014 or 2016.
Maybe HD used the ION sense to update the ignition timing maps?

 

hey thanks for that.

I could *never* *ever* have a spark knock retard register in this bike. and yes, it was pinging but not registering.

my original tune's spark advance map looks the same as the 415 shown above.

even if that ION sensing worked, and if emissions are goal, why would they *pull* timing out? that part is what makes no sense to me... unless it is also running a lot leaner (stock).

will try to use the old timing (or something based off it) and report back... if it runs as smooth as my old 883R (2008) its gold.

oh and by the way HDI models had catalyst way before 2014... even before EFI. 2005 or 2006 is where it started.

 

In 2003 the California models and HDI had cats.
It seems like first few years of EFI didn't.
At least the 2007 parts catalog showed the same mufflers for US, Calif and Canada.
No separate listing for HDI mufflers in 2007.
2014 (when the crossover changed to the head pipes instead of the mufflers) all US Domestic Sportsters got cats.

 

​​​​​This causes the ECU to run in open loop mode rather than closed loop, lower the temp to get closed loop.

 

Crossovers were in headers long before 2014 (look at a 1996 Sportster or Bad Boy and notice the section of pipe just below the carb, that is the crossover pipe in the headers), in 2007 cats were installed in the mufflers this people drilling them out along with the baffles.

 

yup, crossovers been there for a long time... i think all EVOs had them stock.

back to the spark advance... having a good time (pun intended) running the old screaming eagle timing map on my new sportster... a bit modified but pretty much the same when on the throttle at lower RPMs. much less herky-jerky than when running lower timing. no pinging that I could detect so far.

 

I wrote my own spark table (same for front and rare cylinder) for my '13 Iron, after trying and comparing all the maps from SEPT, DJPV and Fp3 (both j1850 to CAN bus model years) even looked into the TTS master tune map as well.

My Frankenstein Map is made up of the '13 SEPT stage 1 VE's, (cos running a couple of auto tune sessions through the Fp3 gave me somewhat similar numbers) custom : spark timing, iac warm up steps, Idle table etc..also since some of the important tables are missing in the fp3 couldn't fine tune the map.

 

thanks for that! is that map for a 1200 sportster? sure looks “hot”, any pinging? what type of fuel u guys run in india?

cheers!

 

Even for a stock 1200, I wouldn't run more than 35° max coming in any sooner than 5000rpm.