Well then, lets jus quickly call Harley and DynoJet abt running excessive timings in their Maps, that are available worldwide before some more engines explode.

Now that sarcasm is outta the way. Let me start off by saying that i do sincerely agree with what u said.

As mentioned in my previous posts, the Spark table i posted above is just a reference that one can create their own...'given one knows what he/she is doing.

Im sure as a dyno guy, u know an 883 can get away with more timing cos of the lower compression. My posted spark table from my J1850 Fp3 (more on that another day) has been refined over several months to smooth out the kinks. Yes this is all Butt Dyno, ...'but it jus works well for my stg 1 setup, running my own custom made baffles in a hacked pair of stock mufflers.

Which brings us to the variables.. Intake, Exhuast, Tuner, Fuel, regional climatic conditions (Temps, Altitude, Humidity etc) and the Rider himself. Im not looking for Peak numbers, Jus want a smooth ride. Plugs look right, sounds healthy, no excessive heat, good mileage, no detonation in hot weather or WOT... #tuning goals achieved.

The Stg 1 tables below are a great example. WOT region of the PV map aside, I've never had good results at lower rpm with 20° of given timing of SEPT map (it always had pinging or plug fouling with excessive fuel CL/OL). Yet lot of ppl here run the same Map jus fine. Yes my Fp3 also was a factor.

So you see, how the theory of one doesn't always correlate to the practical implications of the other.

 

I do agree that the 883 can get away with more timing since it has lower comp and you can get away with being in the "plain" torque zone without detonation, but one thing is to add timing up to the point of detonation and another is to add or remove timing so you stay in the MBT zone for most power/less heat. I have been tuning some bikes on the street since I had no dyno at that time and a lot of things that I considered true were just false once I got my own bike on the dyno and saw how the engine behaves and listening to what it wanted. I had some bikes in the dyno that the owner said that were flawless and ran awesome and after being tuned he couldn't believe the difference it made.
And of course, those engines are true living animals that changes based on a million variables, what is good for you may not be good for me, still I wouldn't run 40 or 41º of advance @6000 above the 70kpa zone

And about DJ and HD tunes.. god knows why they are running those stupid timing values in some areas, atleast we know that bikes doens't explode because of that but it is far from optimal.

 

I am with both of you on this timing and fueling none of it makes much sense in the real world but I am still working on it. I have since moved from about to sea level to around 600ft and with the hills and cooler temps things don’t seem right. I don’t think it’s in the map or fueling anymore though. I am nowhere near the timing being able to produce this rattling I hear under acceleration near the front of the engine. I believe there is something going on with the primary which sucks cause the bike has 700 miles on it. So into Harley it will have to go. I really don’t trust them though to be honest. I haven’t found much luck with them and I wasted money on warranty they might not honor now. Even though I made no changes that should effect the primary drive. I may just go ahead and service it myself and see if it sounds better worse or same.