thnx, I don't have another motor to play with, but I understand the riscs, especialy on ignition timing.

 

Well not being a professional tuner, I don't really know. Bob might offer some insight. I did work with one guy that was a Power Commander shop that did mostly sport bikes and beemers. His method was simple. If you go ping, back off 2-3 degrees. Once the ping was gone tune for power. Power will typically peak a 1 to a few degrees before detonation.

I remember an older dyno tuner that used to do a lot of carbed bikes. His thing was to get the AFR roughly right, do timing to peak power, then go back to adjusting fuel again for power then back to timing.

The important thing to remember about Tmax is that it will adjust fueling on the fly so timing becomes more important. You need a tachometer and markings on the throttle position to determine where pinging occurs. There are a number of 120 ci maps in the Tmax library and they do have maps for the HD 120R.

I'd recommend downloading the software and reading the manual. You can open maps, look at them and even edit them. You only need the tmax if you want to program one.

 

great, thnx, i'll be sniffing the s/w asap, good idea!
I have mailed Tmax asking for the features tmax don't have compared to the stock ECM. (i think t's called Delphi ?)
One of them being automatically retard timing in case of detonation as mentioned by GaryLC

I'll post the info here in a commen when I have it.

 

Max is a very smart guy so him saying he can use a Thundermax on a 120r motor I have no doubt and I have used it on big motors as well but Max is not your average Joe of the street he is a lot smarter than most people and I have been reading his posts for many years on a few forums.

I think Chris Schroeder (rip) from DTT said it best when he wrote that if a PC confuses you and you can't follow or understand how folders work and your knowledge of EFI is limited then this product is not for you.
This was him selling his own product very similar to the Thundermax and preferring people not to buy it rather than get confused and damage their motors and continually ask basic questions on tech support.

If you feel confident in your PC skills and are prepared for a steep learning curve with EFI then have it but please don't say you were not told this and if you had been you would not have bought it

 

That's right because the marketing for Thundermax gave people the illusion that tuning was easy peasy and anyone could do it.
The truth was quite a bitter pill to swallow for most people you got a lot of people who bought it but could not work it out tell everyone it is the best thing since sliced bread because they don't want to be the only idiot that wasted their money.
People are weird that way and been like that forever.
Lot's of Thundermax's sitting on shelves as paperweights now or put back in a box and into storage to be forgotten.
I have a table here strewn with dongles and ECM's and narrow band and wide band sensors so I didn't come down in the last rain shower.

 

As I stated "Many think that the Tmax will self tune. At one time Zippers even claimed so. They don't. "

The first 3 Tmaxs I bought, I bought used. They came from guys that couldn't get them to work. Some could get lucky if the map was close to what they had built but still they may needed a little tweaking.

Not sure what the last sentence means other than it seem like you acquired a bunch of the Delphi stuff the same way I got the Tmaxs. You been getting the Delphi stuff to work or are you placing it with something else? Carbs and DTT?

 

No just stating that I have seen them all come and go and I have the left over remnants of many systems here that I have taken off or replaced for people over the years or still use for the few people I still do work for.
They all work, just the people themselves have no idea what tuning is all about or think magic happens in a small box.
Yourself having bought 3 used T/Max's only validates the reality of a great marketing system that they employed when the T/max was released back in 07/08
A great analogy of tuning systems would be Ham the chimpanzee launched into space in January 1961 and was taught to press this button and pull that lever but the reality was if things had gone pear shaped and even if the craft could be steered he would have had no idea what to do.
At the other end of that scale would be Gemini 8 after the first successful docking in space and going into a spin and with seconds to spare before blacking out Neil Armstrong managed to push the correct button to spin the craft and begin re-entry into earths atmosphere.
I put your level of technical knowledge Max at the Neil Armstrong end of the scale.

 

While I won't place myself in Neil Armstrong's category. I would definitely place myself above Ham.

I think that the key to being successful in using something as complex as EFI system requires that one understand the function of the device. This applies to anything. I do think that most that try any of the aftermarket systems tend to futz around with it by changing maps until they get one that seems OK and then not being satisfied with the results. They pull one unit off and add another then go to a tuning shop and have the bike done professionally. This is by far the easiest way out. The problem is that if some change is desired, the owner has to go back to the dyno shop.

The last change I did to my 07 EGC motor really took about 7-9 map changes to get dialed in over 8 months. The motor went from 9.9 to 1 to 10.5, 103 to 107, sing groves, tighter squish. The first 2-3 happened real quick within the first couple weeks but I ended up picking out minor issues where under certain loads the bike would ping or run rough. Most of it was pulling timing due to increased compression and the grooves.

The 02 RK change took only 2 maps and about 2 weeks, as it only got a slight displacement increase and slight difference in the piston dome shape seemed to help with combustion. Again had to pull timing but most of the time was simply top end breakin. Prior to that I had changed cams and the EFI needed more timing from 2-3K but less from 3 to 5K. Anything you pretty much do the bikes will require monitoring.

I've also tuned these bikes on a dyno. That 8 months of tuning easily compresses into a couple hours. The thing is when tuning without a dyno, you have to be patient. Look at the plugs for signs of detonation and general overall running.

I still only consider myself a hobbiest. I have screwed things up. Burned up a set of rings in a 116 ci twincam by feeding it too much fuel and timing.

 

I used to have a set of pistons here from a Kawasaki 750 triple with a hole in top of of each piston to remind me that not all spark plugs are the same length.
An expensive lesson when I could least afford it

 

My nemesis was 750 norton commando gearboxes. Blew 4 of them up. The main issue was installing a set of barnett clutch plates.