Iridium plug fouling twin cam 88
#12
12-14-2018, 10:18 AM
Club Member
#13
12-14-2018, 10:52 AM
Stellar HDF Member
A little knowledge goes a long way here...
The purpose of a sparkplug is to, well, spark, right?
If a spark plug sparks it will light off the AFR in the combustion chamber.
If “trick” “high performance” spark plugs in TCs actually worked better than the stock plugs dyno tuners would be the very FIRST to offer them up as a performance enhancer.
Instead tuners see the actual results from these products....and as I and other tuners have stated many times, the stock non-screw top spark plugs work best.
When the screw-tops on aftermarket plugs work loose from heat and vibration, it sets up high resistance conditions that cause the ECM to retard timing because it thinks it sees detonation, when it was caused by arbitrary decisions to believe propaganda and/or power claims for things we’ve tested for many years never to be surprised by outcomes.
Screwing with/changing TC secondary ignition system resistance never nets positive results.
And lastly, anyone who states aftermarket sparkplugs, even the cross referenced ones, do not change the resistance or ignition performance of a TC, is simply uninformed and is offering bad info.
Bob
The purpose of a sparkplug is to, well, spark, right?
If a spark plug sparks it will light off the AFR in the combustion chamber.
If “trick” “high performance” spark plugs in TCs actually worked better than the stock plugs dyno tuners would be the very FIRST to offer them up as a performance enhancer.
Instead tuners see the actual results from these products....and as I and other tuners have stated many times, the stock non-screw top spark plugs work best.
When the screw-tops on aftermarket plugs work loose from heat and vibration, it sets up high resistance conditions that cause the ECM to retard timing because it thinks it sees detonation, when it was caused by arbitrary decisions to believe propaganda and/or power claims for things we’ve tested for many years never to be surprised by outcomes.
Screwing with/changing TC secondary ignition system resistance never nets positive results.
And lastly, anyone who states aftermarket sparkplugs, even the cross referenced ones, do not change the resistance or ignition performance of a TC, is simply uninformed and is offering bad info.
Bob
The following users liked this post:
jbarr1 (12-14-2018)
#14
12-14-2018, 01:15 PM
Road Master
Good advice here
A little knowledge goes a long way here...
The purpose of a sparkplug is to, well, spark, right?
If a spark plug sparks it will light off the AFR in the combustion chamber.
If “trick” “high performance” spark plugs in TCs actually worked better than the stock plugs dyno tuners would be the very FIRST to offer them up as a performance enhancer.
Instead tuners see the actual results from these products....and as I and other tuners have stated many times, the stock non-screw top spark plugs work best.
When the screw-tops on aftermarket plugs work loose from heat and vibration, it sets up high resistance conditions that cause the ECM to retard timing because it thinks it sees detonation, when it was caused by arbitrary decisions to believe propaganda and/or power claims for things we’ve tested for many years never to be surprised by outcomes.
Screwing with/changing TC secondary ignition system resistance never nets positive results.
And lastly, anyone who states aftermarket sparkplugs, even the cross referenced ones, do not change the resistance or ignition performance of a TC, is simply uninformed and is offering bad info.
Bob
The purpose of a sparkplug is to, well, spark, right?
If a spark plug sparks it will light off the AFR in the combustion chamber.
If “trick” “high performance” spark plugs in TCs actually worked better than the stock plugs dyno tuners would be the very FIRST to offer them up as a performance enhancer.
Instead tuners see the actual results from these products....and as I and other tuners have stated many times, the stock non-screw top spark plugs work best.
When the screw-tops on aftermarket plugs work loose from heat and vibration, it sets up high resistance conditions that cause the ECM to retard timing because it thinks it sees detonation, when it was caused by arbitrary decisions to believe propaganda and/or power claims for things we’ve tested for many years never to be surprised by outcomes.
Screwing with/changing TC secondary ignition system resistance never nets positive results.
And lastly, anyone who states aftermarket sparkplugs, even the cross referenced ones, do not change the resistance or ignition performance of a TC, is simply uninformed and is offering bad info.
Bob
work properly. Factory ignition wires are apx 6k ohms each while the spark plugs are 20k ohms. HD's SE wires are the correct value while
most replacements are not. NGK plugs use the most common resistance used in the industry - 6k ohms - while HD's Champion manufactured
spark plugs are 20k ohms. Champion RA8HC / #810 plugs are a direct replacement but do have screw on ends. Lastly, old spark plug wires
do go high in resistance and cause problems like you've described - $20 for the HD SE wires will save you headache down the road.
Another Bob
#15
12-14-2018, 02:49 PM
Grand HDF Member
resistance has nothing to do with it, that is a dc current concept. what is happening here is impedance, a combination of resistance (if there),capacitance and inductance.
resistance is a an inter-action with electrons and conductor structure. impedance without the resistance factor is opposition to ac current flow with emf either to subdue or sustain flow.
when a spark plug fires or about to fire (no matter which plug type) the rising cyl pressure forces the molecules closer together and when spark voltage is high enough, it starts shredding apart the molecules and the gases at the plug tip ionize, when this gets high enough, the impedance drops and the electrical energy crosses over. during the spark process, the sense system is in lala land. now once the current drops, the sense system introduces a current into the falling conductive path and measures the decay. it gets its current source from the secondary winding of the coil.
in times past, before other applications were introduced, we used this to determine spark plug life and where it was dead or not. now it can do a lot more.
iridium will work just as well. plug gap has a profound effect on flame kernal and design where or not it is shrouded which can lead to crappy ignition.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/ioniza...-susbystem.pdf
resistance is a an inter-action with electrons and conductor structure. impedance without the resistance factor is opposition to ac current flow with emf either to subdue or sustain flow.
when a spark plug fires or about to fire (no matter which plug type) the rising cyl pressure forces the molecules closer together and when spark voltage is high enough, it starts shredding apart the molecules and the gases at the plug tip ionize, when this gets high enough, the impedance drops and the electrical energy crosses over. during the spark process, the sense system is in lala land. now once the current drops, the sense system introduces a current into the falling conductive path and measures the decay. it gets its current source from the secondary winding of the coil.
in times past, before other applications were introduced, we used this to determine spark plug life and where it was dead or not. now it can do a lot more.
iridium will work just as well. plug gap has a profound effect on flame kernal and design where or not it is shrouded which can lead to crappy ignition.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/ioniza...-susbystem.pdf
Last edited by bustert; 12-14-2018 at 02:55 PM.
#17
12-14-2018, 03:42 PM
Road Master
Delphi ECM ion sensing system
resistance has nothing to do with it, that is a dc current concept. what is happening here is impedance, a combination of resistance (if there),capacitance and inductance.
resistance is a an inter-action with electrons and conductor structure. impedance without the resistance factor is opposition to ac current flow with emf either to subdue or sustain flow.
when a spark plug fires or about to fire (no matter which plug type) the rising cyl pressure forces the molecules closer together and when spark voltage is high enough, it starts shredding apart the molecules and the gases at the plug tip ionize, when this gets high enough, the impedance drops and the electrical energy crosses over. during the spark process, the sense system is in lala land. now once the current drops, the sense system introduces a current into the falling conductive path and measures the decay. it gets its current source from the secondary winding of the coil.
in times past, before other applications were introduced, we used this to determine spark plug life and where it was dead or not. now it can do a lot more.
iridium will work just as well. plug gap has a profound effect on flame kernal and design where or not it is shrouded which can lead to crappy ignition.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/ioniza...-susbystem.pdf
resistance is a an inter-action with electrons and conductor structure. impedance without the resistance factor is opposition to ac current flow with emf either to subdue or sustain flow.
when a spark plug fires or about to fire (no matter which plug type) the rising cyl pressure forces the molecules closer together and when spark voltage is high enough, it starts shredding apart the molecules and the gases at the plug tip ionize, when this gets high enough, the impedance drops and the electrical energy crosses over. during the spark process, the sense system is in lala land. now once the current drops, the sense system introduces a current into the falling conductive path and measures the decay. it gets its current source from the secondary winding of the coil.
in times past, before other applications were introduced, we used this to determine spark plug life and where it was dead or not. now it can do a lot more.
iridium will work just as well. plug gap has a profound effect on flame kernal and design where or not it is shrouded which can lead to crappy ignition.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/ioniza...-susbystem.pdf
overall operation go here - https://www.hdforums.com/forum/engin...explained.html
#18
12-14-2018, 04:59 PM
Ok, I think I get it after reading the links you guys sent and reading your replies. I thank all of you for your input.
1. The NGK Iridium plug probably has the wrong OHM rating even if it in the right heat range? Since the plug itself is being used as an internal ion knock sensor, a plug with the wrong OHM rating will send an erroneous signal back to the ECM and cause detonation issues?
2. My bike is a 2006. I'm not certain when the spark plug wires have last been changed since I got it this summer. So I'll change the wires even if the bike runs well. They may be 12 years old for all I know. Ditto for the plugs even if they look ok. Better to have a fresh start.
3. I installed the Cobra FI tuner. After installing after market slip-ons and a K&N filter, the bike jerked at around 30 mph indicating an overly lean A/F ratio. So I adjusted the ratio using the tuner to a richer condition to eliminate the jerking motion and reduce the amount of heat the engine was producing.
The old wires, wrong plugs and richer A/F may have created a sort of perfect storm causing this rich A/F ratio. I am using high test fuel BTW but with at least 10% ethanol. I live in Canada. I didn't notice any knocking occurring though but it seems the Ion sensor did?
Is this mostly right? I'm not a mechanic but I like doing as much work on my bike as possible. So I'll change the wires (should I use OEM or can a bigger 8-8.5 mm wire be used?), change the plugs to Champion RA8HC / #810 plugs (thanks for the tip jbarr1!). I can only imagine the headaches this Delphi system could cause if someone wanted to seriously mod their bike.
1. The NGK Iridium plug probably has the wrong OHM rating even if it in the right heat range? Since the plug itself is being used as an internal ion knock sensor, a plug with the wrong OHM rating will send an erroneous signal back to the ECM and cause detonation issues?
2. My bike is a 2006. I'm not certain when the spark plug wires have last been changed since I got it this summer. So I'll change the wires even if the bike runs well. They may be 12 years old for all I know. Ditto for the plugs even if they look ok. Better to have a fresh start.
3. I installed the Cobra FI tuner. After installing after market slip-ons and a K&N filter, the bike jerked at around 30 mph indicating an overly lean A/F ratio. So I adjusted the ratio using the tuner to a richer condition to eliminate the jerking motion and reduce the amount of heat the engine was producing.
The old wires, wrong plugs and richer A/F may have created a sort of perfect storm causing this rich A/F ratio. I am using high test fuel BTW but with at least 10% ethanol. I live in Canada. I didn't notice any knocking occurring though but it seems the Ion sensor did?
Is this mostly right? I'm not a mechanic but I like doing as much work on my bike as possible. So I'll change the wires (should I use OEM or can a bigger 8-8.5 mm wire be used?), change the plugs to Champion RA8HC / #810 plugs (thanks for the tip jbarr1!). I can only imagine the headaches this Delphi system could cause if someone wanted to seriously mod their bike.
#19
12-15-2018, 08:26 AM
Grand HDF Member
in the grand scheme of things, anything that effects the ignition effects the ion sense system. this could be carbon, bad wires/coil where you have a loss of voltage or conductivity. as far as the resistor plugs, it has little effect and primarily is there to reduce ringing which produces RMF radiation.
the sense system reads combustion conductivity. many things can upset this from misfire, timing issues, fuel quality and detonation. any distortion will cause waves (lack of a better word) that upsets the current flow, this is suitable for knock.
the sense reads the dc bias which is proportional to combustion characteristic. good combustion = good current flow and drop on the circuit, bad combustion = bad current flow and less drop on the circuit which the ecu reads.
youtube some oscilloscope wave forms and you can see the action, and if used in a wasted spark engine and monitoring both plugs (dual trace) you can see the diff between combustion and not.
the sense system reads combustion conductivity. many things can upset this from misfire, timing issues, fuel quality and detonation. any distortion will cause waves (lack of a better word) that upsets the current flow, this is suitable for knock.
the sense reads the dc bias which is proportional to combustion characteristic. good combustion = good current flow and drop on the circuit, bad combustion = bad current flow and less drop on the circuit which the ecu reads.
youtube some oscilloscope wave forms and you can see the action, and if used in a wasted spark engine and monitoring both plugs (dual trace) you can see the diff between combustion and not.
#20
12-15-2018, 01:05 PM
Road Master
Ok, I think I get it after reading the links you guys sent and reading your replies. I thank all of you for your input.
1. The NGK Iridium plug probably has the wrong OHM rating even if it in the right heat range? Since the plug itself is being used as an internal ion knock sensor, a plug with the wrong OHM rating will send an erroneous signal back to the ECM and cause detonation issues?
2. My bike is a 2006. I'm not certain when the spark plug wires have last been changed since I got it this summer. So I'll change the wires even if the bike runs well. They may be 12 years old for all I know. Ditto for the plugs even if they look ok. Better to have a fresh start.
3. I installed the Cobra FI tuner. After installing after market slip-ons and a K&N filter, the bike jerked at around 30 mph indicating an overly lean A/F ratio. So I adjusted the ratio using the tuner to a richer condition to eliminate the jerking motion and reduce the amount of heat the engine was producing.
The old wires, wrong plugs and richer A/F may have created a sort of perfect storm causing this rich A/F ratio. I am using high test fuel BTW but with at least 10% ethanol. I live in Canada. I didn't notice any knocking occurring though but it seems the Ion sensor did?
Is this mostly right? I'm not a mechanic but I like doing as much work on my bike as possible. So I'll change the wires (should I use OEM or can a bigger 8-8.5 mm wire be used?), change the plugs to Champion RA8HC / #810 plugs (thanks for the tip jbarr1!). I can only imagine the headaches this Delphi system could cause if someone wanted to seriously mod their bike.
1. The NGK Iridium plug probably has the wrong OHM rating even if it in the right heat range? Since the plug itself is being used as an internal ion knock sensor, a plug with the wrong OHM rating will send an erroneous signal back to the ECM and cause detonation issues?
2. My bike is a 2006. I'm not certain when the spark plug wires have last been changed since I got it this summer. So I'll change the wires even if the bike runs well. They may be 12 years old for all I know. Ditto for the plugs even if they look ok. Better to have a fresh start.
3. I installed the Cobra FI tuner. After installing after market slip-ons and a K&N filter, the bike jerked at around 30 mph indicating an overly lean A/F ratio. So I adjusted the ratio using the tuner to a richer condition to eliminate the jerking motion and reduce the amount of heat the engine was producing.
The old wires, wrong plugs and richer A/F may have created a sort of perfect storm causing this rich A/F ratio. I am using high test fuel BTW but with at least 10% ethanol. I live in Canada. I didn't notice any knocking occurring though but it seems the Ion sensor did?
Is this mostly right? I'm not a mechanic but I like doing as much work on my bike as possible. So I'll change the wires (should I use OEM or can a bigger 8-8.5 mm wire be used?), change the plugs to Champion RA8HC / #810 plugs (thanks for the tip jbarr1!). I can only imagine the headaches this Delphi system could cause if someone wanted to seriously mod their bike.