Engine temp open code?
#1
05-17-2018 | 04:09 PM
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: Central TX
Engine temp open code?
Bike was running rough - surging, low rpms at stops, almost stalling, hard starting. Checked codes and I had one for engine temp sensor open. Replaced sensor - did not fix any problems. Ride it to work one mile after changing ET sensor and I barley made it there. Now it won’t start. Was wondering if I may have a fuel leak in the line or regulator inside the tank, as I have had that happen in past with similar symptoms. The ET sensor open code just does not make any sense. Would a leak in tank throw any codes? Any ideas what might be going on?
#2
05-17-2018 | 05:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
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maxheadflow would probably be the man here. i ride gravity, it never fails. i do automotive so i will throw this out:
the temp permissive tells the ecu the engine is warm enough to go closed loop and the ecu then starts looking at sensor data and alters it to adjust engine running. if the sensor fails, the ecu always sees a cold engine and it will run a richer mix which could lead to fouled plugs.
fuel pressure check will tell the story there. if pressure is low, injector on times will extend in order to bring the engine to optimum O2. if too low, engine will not respond, lack of power.
you need to check to see if there is an injector pulse and also fire from the plugs, issues here will sometimes go back to the crank position sensor.
coding is funny, it has to go outside the parameter and past the time out before it will throw, so if the failure is short term, might not code. also there are codes that throw and not check engine light, some are accessible only by scanner.
the temp permissive tells the ecu the engine is warm enough to go closed loop and the ecu then starts looking at sensor data and alters it to adjust engine running. if the sensor fails, the ecu always sees a cold engine and it will run a richer mix which could lead to fouled plugs.
fuel pressure check will tell the story there. if pressure is low, injector on times will extend in order to bring the engine to optimum O2. if too low, engine will not respond, lack of power.
you need to check to see if there is an injector pulse and also fire from the plugs, issues here will sometimes go back to the crank position sensor.
coding is funny, it has to go outside the parameter and past the time out before it will throw, so if the failure is short term, might not code. also there are codes that throw and not check engine light, some are accessible only by scanner.
#3
05-17-2018 | 07:49 PM
Open code means the circuit is open. You may have a broken wire. The sensor is a thermistor that returns a signal based on resistance. A 5v signal is sent to the sensor, and based on what it returns, temp is calculated. This occurs inside the ECM in a component called the Analog to Digital Convertor. Open codes mean the circuit is open. Shorted means it's shorted. Each end of the spectrum is set so it is out of range and will throw a code.
Codes do not mean the sensor is bad - they mean the circuit has a problem. If you replaced the sensor, you most likely have a broken wire. Check insulation for softness/rubbery feel indicating wires are broken internally - especially by connector or zip ties. I always see them broken right at the connector to the sensor where the wire passes into the rubber seal or where they are retained. Most often an the connector.
You need to fix this first - then clear code and see if problem is gone.
Codes do not mean the sensor is bad - they mean the circuit has a problem. If you replaced the sensor, you most likely have a broken wire. Check insulation for softness/rubbery feel indicating wires are broken internally - especially by connector or zip ties. I always see them broken right at the connector to the sensor where the wire passes into the rubber seal or where they are retained. Most often an the connector.
You need to fix this first - then clear code and see if problem is gone.
Last edited by Ed Ramberger; 05-17-2018 at 08:57 PM.
#4
05-17-2018 | 09:04 PM
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Road Warrior
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From: Central TX
Thanks - I’ll check wiring this weekend. Tank was on and off a few times recently to get tins painted then replacing intake seals. Maybe something got pinched. That would make sense, since I replaced the ET sensor and still getting code. Had a spare crank position sensor so I replaced it also - no help. Would the ET sensor cause bike to not turn over?
#5
05-17-2018 | 09:09 PM
Thanks - I’ll check wiring this weekend. Tank was on and off a few times recently to get tins painted then replacing intake seals. Maybe something got pinched. That would make sense, since I replaced the ET sensor and still getting code. Had a spare crank position sensor so I replaced it also - no help. Would the ET sensor cause bike to not turn over?
Last edited by Ed Ramberger; 05-17-2018 at 09:11 PM.
#6
05-20-2018 | 12:00 PM
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Road Warrior
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From: Central TX
Son and I had a bad stomach bug, so have not had a chance until today to look at bike. Here’s what I did:
- cleaned air intake sensor with MAF cleaner and verified it is working when ignition is turned on.
- checked all pins and connectors on ET snesor - looked good.
- visually checked ET wiring for any pinches, cuts, weak spots - looked good.
- pulled spark plugs to check - little sooty, but not bad.
- held each spark in wire to ground and looked for spark while hitting start button - no spark. Swapped out plugs to some I had lying around - no spark. Checked coil connector - looked good. Had spare coil - so I connected t and checked for spark - no spark. Once it twice with original coil, I was got a spark, but not repeat consistently or get both plugs to spark. Swapped front and rear wires and plugs - no spark on either cylinder. I had .compression in the cylinders.
reinstalled original coil.
- I had swapped out crank position sensor last week, so I reinstalled original to make sure no problems with the spare I had - no spark.
- had battery checked last ride and it checked good in bike and off under load. Put it in charger up until Friday to make sure it had a good charge.
- jumped pins 1&2 on port under seat and ran codes again. This time I got codes 14, 11, 24 and 25.
Used to think I understood how to read the DTC code, now I am wondering if I am reading these wrong. Bike is 2001 Fatboy - can someone tell me what these codes are?
- cleaned air intake sensor with MAF cleaner and verified it is working when ignition is turned on.
- checked all pins and connectors on ET snesor - looked good.
- visually checked ET wiring for any pinches, cuts, weak spots - looked good.
- pulled spark plugs to check - little sooty, but not bad.
- held each spark in wire to ground and looked for spark while hitting start button - no spark. Swapped out plugs to some I had lying around - no spark. Checked coil connector - looked good. Had spare coil - so I connected t and checked for spark - no spark. Once it twice with original coil, I was got a spark, but not repeat consistently or get both plugs to spark. Swapped front and rear wires and plugs - no spark on either cylinder. I had .compression in the cylinders.
reinstalled original coil.
- I had swapped out crank position sensor last week, so I reinstalled original to make sure no problems with the spare I had - no spark.
- had battery checked last ride and it checked good in bike and off under load. Put it in charger up until Friday to make sure it had a good charge.
- jumped pins 1&2 on port under seat and ran codes again. This time I got codes 14, 11, 24 and 25.
Used to think I understood how to read the DTC code, now I am wondering if I am reading these wrong. Bike is 2001 Fatboy - can someone tell me what these codes are?
Last edited by txphatboy; 05-20-2018 at 12:01 PM.
#7
05-20-2018 | 01:13 PM
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Road Warrior
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From: Central TX
If I am using the jumper method to retrieve codes, should I compare to the first set of numbers on the DTC table or the second number that appears after current or historic? If I am reading how I think is correct, I am showing a System Relay being opened and closed(??), ET sensor open, and IAT sensor low voltage.
Could the System Relay be causing all these issues? I am hoping as that would be the easiest fix.
Could the System Relay be causing all these issues? I am hoping as that would be the easiest fix.
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#8
05-20-2018 | 04:50 PM
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Road Warrior
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From: Central TX
#9
05-20-2018 | 06:53 PM
Plugs must be installed for Delphi system to throw spark. So if it is fuel injected and the plugs were not installed when you tested for spark, you won't have any. Have you verified fuel pressure? Also disconnect and reconnect fuel line to tank.
Last edited by Ed Ramberger; 05-20-2018 at 07:07 PM.
#10
05-20-2018 | 07:39 PM
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: Central TX
So I took battery to O’Reilly’s and they swapped it out for a new one. Installed it and it started up, but ran really rough (sounded like one cylinder) and died quickly. So when I was testing for spark earlier, before installing new relay, I was checking both front and rear coils. After installing new relay, I just checked back plug for spark, which I got . After installing the new battery and bike sounding like it was running on one cylinder, I pulled front plug and checked again. No spark. Rear coil still had spark. Installed front wire/plug in rear coil and tried again to make sure there was no problem with wire or plug - got spark. So it appeared to be a bad front coil. Luckily, I still had a spare coil that I tried selling (with no luck) so I plugged everything in quick and had spark in front plug. Installed everything, cranked it up, there was a loud boom from all the unburnt fuel in the front cylinder, and then it started running normal.
Hopefully, there is not some underlying issue going on causing problems, but for now it appears to be running normal. Raining pretty heavy so can’t take it out for test ride. So, in the end I initially swapped out ET sensor with no change, did a bunch of inspections on wiring & connections with no change, swapped crank position sensor with a spare with no change, cleaned IAT sensor with no change, replaced a $8 system relay which helped get spark on rear coil, replaced battery under warranty which helped turn engine over, but not the source of the problem, and finally replaced coil, which fixed front spark problem. Not sure what the ET code was from, but hoping it was just a result of the relay issue.
I think both the relay and coil were the problems, as I could not get consistent spark out of rear coil before replacing the relay. Then I could not get spark on rear plug until I replaced the whole coil unit. I was very fortunate to have some spare parts around that allowed me to keep troubleshooting and testing. Spent $50 on new ET sensor and relay. Was about to call shop and haul it there this week, so I probably saved a couple hundred bucks. Anyways, thanks for any input and lesson learned - I will keep a female electrical spade connector in my bag for now on to diagnose trouble codes on the road. I stopped at HD dealer during my last ride when I was having all kinds of problems and service writer told me it would be $100 just to start diagnosin. I told him that is crazy - takes just a couple minutes to do it.
Hopefully, there is not some underlying issue going on causing problems, but for now it appears to be running normal. Raining pretty heavy so can’t take it out for test ride. So, in the end I initially swapped out ET sensor with no change, did a bunch of inspections on wiring & connections with no change, swapped crank position sensor with a spare with no change, cleaned IAT sensor with no change, replaced a $8 system relay which helped get spark on rear coil, replaced battery under warranty which helped turn engine over, but not the source of the problem, and finally replaced coil, which fixed front spark problem. Not sure what the ET code was from, but hoping it was just a result of the relay issue.
I think both the relay and coil were the problems, as I could not get consistent spark out of rear coil before replacing the relay. Then I could not get spark on rear plug until I replaced the whole coil unit. I was very fortunate to have some spare parts around that allowed me to keep troubleshooting and testing. Spent $50 on new ET sensor and relay. Was about to call shop and haul it there this week, so I probably saved a couple hundred bucks. Anyways, thanks for any input and lesson learned - I will keep a female electrical spade connector in my bag for now on to diagnose trouble codes on the road. I stopped at HD dealer during my last ride when I was having all kinds of problems and service writer told me it would be $100 just to start diagnosin. I told him that is crazy - takes just a couple minutes to do it.
Last edited by txphatboy; 05-20-2018 at 07:50 PM.