Counter Steering on a Harley?
#1
01-02-2005, 08:12 AM
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Counter Steering on a Harley?
Has any ever had to do a counter steer on a Harley to avoid a collision?
Before you all say "yup" let me explain for those not in the know. When you ride over about 20 kph the only way to turn the bike is to lean it in the direction you want to go. Under 20 kph and the bike goes in the direction you turn the steering i.e. you are going too slow to lean the bike without falling off (obvious so far right?).
When you counter steer (riding at 20 kph or more) you actually turn the handle bars in the opposite direction to where you want to go i.e. when turning left you steer right and when turning right you steer left. All riders do this naturally everytime they lean into a corner or curve without being concious of the fact due to the dynamics of the bike and the manouvre.
But this unconcious natural counter steering is not the kind I am asking about.
I want to know about the concious, very deliberate, counter steer manouvre required to turn very sharply in a tight situation in order to avoid a collision (usually with a car but could be anything ofcourse). This is where you very deliberatly jerk the handle bars quickly to the left when you want to go right or quickly to the right when you want to go left. This action automatically throws the bike into a lean in the opposite direction to the jerk and all you have to do is follow through into the lean...this happens like magic (but is really dynamics).
Counter steering to avoid a collision is probably one of the most unnatural acts on a bike you could ever perform/master, but highly effective and could save your Harley one day, if not your life. And in some cases is better than simply slamming on the brakes and hoping you will stop in time.
So, back to the question. I have never tried this on a 315kg plus bike before and want to know if any of you have? I expect it will be just the same as any bike but it would be nice to read from someone that does it on a Harley....
P.S.
Anyone that wants to try this for the first time I would recommend practising on a smaller, lighter bike first...[
]
Before you all say "yup" let me explain for those not in the know. When you ride over about 20 kph the only way to turn the bike is to lean it in the direction you want to go. Under 20 kph and the bike goes in the direction you turn the steering i.e. you are going too slow to lean the bike without falling off (obvious so far right?).
When you counter steer (riding at 20 kph or more) you actually turn the handle bars in the opposite direction to where you want to go i.e. when turning left you steer right and when turning right you steer left. All riders do this naturally everytime they lean into a corner or curve without being concious of the fact due to the dynamics of the bike and the manouvre.
But this unconcious natural counter steering is not the kind I am asking about.
I want to know about the concious, very deliberate, counter steer manouvre required to turn very sharply in a tight situation in order to avoid a collision (usually with a car but could be anything ofcourse). This is where you very deliberatly jerk the handle bars quickly to the left when you want to go right or quickly to the right when you want to go left. This action automatically throws the bike into a lean in the opposite direction to the jerk and all you have to do is follow through into the lean...this happens like magic (but is really dynamics).
Counter steering to avoid a collision is probably one of the most unnatural acts on a bike you could ever perform/master, but highly effective and could save your Harley one day, if not your life. And in some cases is better than simply slamming on the brakes and hoping you will stop in time.
So, back to the question. I have never tried this on a 315kg plus bike before and want to know if any of you have? I expect it will be just the same as any bike but it would be nice to read from someone that does it on a Harley....
P.S.
Anyone that wants to try this for the first time I would recommend practising on a smaller, lighter bike first...[
]
#2
01-02-2005, 10:13 AM
RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
howartthou, I think I understand what you're saying and honestly can say, I don't think I've ever done it.
I can say however, after getting back on a bike after many years, I was slowing down to make a right turn when unconciously I was looking at the driver in the car sitting at the stop, perpendicular to me. She was nice looking too!
I had to catch myself and lean hard and look in the direction I wanted to go, before hitting her car. It was a reality check to say the least.
I can say however, after getting back on a bike after many years, I was slowing down to make a right turn when unconciously I was looking at the driver in the car sitting at the stop, perpendicular to me. She was nice looking too!
I had to catch myself and lean hard and look in the direction I wanted to go, before hitting her car. It was a reality check to say the least.
#3
01-02-2005, 10:25 AM
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RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
Yup, countersteering is a way of life. They teach it in the rider instruction courses here, but too many of the newbies I run across (not literally, mind you!) either weren't paying attention, or didn't understand the concept and simply stared off into la-la-land 'til the subject was changed.
Funny thing is, once you are up to speed everyone countersteers, whether they realize it or not. The ones who don't realize or consciously practice it, do it by using their weight to lean the bike. But at the same time this actually forces them into actually countersteering with the bars, just not enough to get the realization through to their head.
When I've explained the process to a rider, they invariably come back later with big grins saying, "Wow, that's cool!" Or I go see them in a hospital at some time in the future, because they tried it once and then went back to how they were lumbering about before.
Because it is not intuitive, countersteering should be practiced every time you turn, whether through a fairly sharp corner, or through a long sweeper of a turn. Always do it and quit trying to "lean" through a turn. The bike will lean for you when you apply countersteering. The trick is to learn how much force to apply. Practice, practice.
Get up to highway speed on an empty road with a dashed centerline. While in the middle of your own lane lightly push on the right bar and feel the bike want to lean right, and turn right. Repeat the process with the left bar. Gently is the word at first! Next use a little more force, but don't make the bike lean so much you swap lanes or go off onto the shoulder! Now play slalom by straddling the dashed centerline and leaning your bike to miss the lines. Hard to do at speed! Next gently ease into deliberate countersteering while slaloming between the dashed lines. Bike reacts much more quickly, and even if you're on a garbage barge you'll be surprised at how nimble it feels.
Remember: Push Right - Go Right. Push Left - Go Left.
It works; it can't not work due to the physics involved. But it does take practice until you've taught yourself that this is the only way to ride. And I know a couple riders who've been straddling for 30 years and still don't get it. They're the ones who've been down more times than they care to recount. Or they ride so cautiously as to be a road hazard to everyone around them!
As far as using the process in an emergency? When I ride my 72 mile round trip to work/back, it happens at least once every week or so. I live in deer heaven in East Texas and routinely see 10 - 50 deer per day. Yeah, I slow down, but often I'll get a surprise and a fawn or yearling will dash out into the road. Nothing to do but hit the brakes, countersteer, and hope. I've also used it avoiding junk in the road that I failed to see because I was being an idiot and following someone too close.
Funny thing is, once you are up to speed everyone countersteers, whether they realize it or not. The ones who don't realize or consciously practice it, do it by using their weight to lean the bike. But at the same time this actually forces them into actually countersteering with the bars, just not enough to get the realization through to their head.
When I've explained the process to a rider, they invariably come back later with big grins saying, "Wow, that's cool!" Or I go see them in a hospital at some time in the future, because they tried it once and then went back to how they were lumbering about before.
Because it is not intuitive, countersteering should be practiced every time you turn, whether through a fairly sharp corner, or through a long sweeper of a turn. Always do it and quit trying to "lean" through a turn. The bike will lean for you when you apply countersteering. The trick is to learn how much force to apply. Practice, practice.
Get up to highway speed on an empty road with a dashed centerline. While in the middle of your own lane lightly push on the right bar and feel the bike want to lean right, and turn right. Repeat the process with the left bar. Gently is the word at first! Next use a little more force, but don't make the bike lean so much you swap lanes or go off onto the shoulder! Now play slalom by straddling the dashed centerline and leaning your bike to miss the lines. Hard to do at speed! Next gently ease into deliberate countersteering while slaloming between the dashed lines. Bike reacts much more quickly, and even if you're on a garbage barge you'll be surprised at how nimble it feels.
Remember: Push Right - Go Right. Push Left - Go Left.
It works; it can't not work due to the physics involved. But it does take practice until you've taught yourself that this is the only way to ride. And I know a couple riders who've been straddling for 30 years and still don't get it. They're the ones who've been down more times than they care to recount. Or they ride so cautiously as to be a road hazard to everyone around them!
As far as using the process in an emergency? When I ride my 72 mile round trip to work/back, it happens at least once every week or so. I live in deer heaven in East Texas and routinely see 10 - 50 deer per day. Yeah, I slow down, but often I'll get a surprise and a fawn or yearling will dash out into the road. Nothing to do but hit the brakes, countersteer, and hope. I've also used it avoiding junk in the road that I failed to see because I was being an idiot and following someone too close.
#4
01-02-2005, 10:27 AM
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RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
Thats funny...apart from testing your reflexes it proves one thing....you're bike will go exactly in the direction you are looking at [sm=nothatway.gif]
#5
01-02-2005, 10:42 AM
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RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
Thanks pococj...that was really insightful, and I have to admit I need to practice more...I liked your slalom idea and I will practice it, very gently at first.
I assume when you wrote "Nothing to do but hit the brakes, countersteer, and hope" that you didnt mean brake and countersteer at the same time i.e. you actually meant brake first, let go of the brakes, then countersteer?
I assume when you wrote "Nothing to do but hit the brakes, countersteer, and hope" that you didnt mean brake and countersteer at the same time i.e. you actually meant brake first, let go of the brakes, then countersteer?
#6
01-02-2005, 12:04 PM
RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
Remember: Push Right - Go Right. Push Left - Go Left.
#7
01-02-2005, 12:05 PM
RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
howartthou,
This is actually a very interesting point you bring up, and in my opinion 1 of the 2 most common mistakes made by all riders.
Truthfully, countersteering is the ONLY way to steer, you cannot turn the bike by leaning. If you lean (without pushing or pulling) the bike MAY gently drift in the direction of the lean. If you think you can make it turn by leaning over...you are fighting physics, and the Gyro effect. (That's what keeps the silly thing standing up with only two wheels).
Check out this link. Written by a Cafe Race Style biker, but never-the-less, he did an interesting experiment, and I think it will convince you of what I'm saying, and further, possibly save someones life.
Article on Countersteering
[sm=icon_cheers.gif]
This is actually a very interesting point you bring up, and in my opinion 1 of the 2 most common mistakes made by all riders.
Truthfully, countersteering is the ONLY way to steer, you cannot turn the bike by leaning. If you lean (without pushing or pulling) the bike MAY gently drift in the direction of the lean. If you think you can make it turn by leaning over...you are fighting physics, and the Gyro effect. (That's what keeps the silly thing standing up with only two wheels).
Check out this link. Written by a Cafe Race Style biker, but never-the-less, he did an interesting experiment, and I think it will convince you of what I'm saying, and further, possibly save someones life.
Article on Countersteering
[sm=icon_cheers.gif]
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#8
01-02-2005, 07:50 PM
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RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
12Stones
You should read Macs URL reference if you gavent already ready...
Mac
Thanks for the great artical. I downloaded and saved the clip of the "No BS Bike". Fantastic! It says it all...
You should read Macs URL reference if you gavent already ready...
Mac
Thanks for the great artical. I downloaded and saved the clip of the "No BS Bike". Fantastic! It says it all...
#9
01-02-2005, 08:23 PM
RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
howartthou,
Glad you enjoyed it. Wife and I just got back from a short ride. I was thinking about this thread, and decided to try something. While holding the handlebars straight, I leaned way, way over to the right, (God knows what Kelly was thinking at this moment), while leaned way over, I pulled on the right handle bar. Guess what? Bike went left.
No surprise to me, really. Try it.
The second biggest mistake (I referred to earlier) that I see with riders is the inability to "look through the turn." Ironhead alluded to it, it worked for him, (probably saved him some paint). Many, many, many riders don't CRANK their head around in the direction they are going, and too many times I will see them cross left of the center line when making a right! TURN YOUR HEAD!
I've seen it numerous times. I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the bike (choppers may be excluded, I know nothing about them), as I have had 3 tourers, and all could be easily maintained.
If you know what your doing, and are able to look through the turn, you'll be able to turn in complete circles with the handlebars cranked all the way over to the stops. (Slow speeds of course). I did this today on the bike as well (while solo).
Just stuff to think about, stuff that I'm always thinking about, and skills I'm constantly trying to hone. I can't say enough about the MSF course.
Ride safe brother, if'n you'd like some more interesting links on this stuff, I got a bunch!
Mac
Glad you enjoyed it. Wife and I just got back from a short ride. I was thinking about this thread, and decided to try something. While holding the handlebars straight, I leaned way, way over to the right, (God knows what Kelly was thinking at this moment), while leaned way over, I pulled on the right handle bar. Guess what? Bike went left.
No surprise to me, really. Try it.
The second biggest mistake (I referred to earlier) that I see with riders is the inability to "look through the turn." Ironhead alluded to it, it worked for him, (probably saved him some paint). Many, many, many riders don't CRANK their head around in the direction they are going, and too many times I will see them cross left of the center line when making a right! TURN YOUR HEAD!
I've seen it numerous times. I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the bike (choppers may be excluded, I know nothing about them), as I have had 3 tourers, and all could be easily maintained.
If you know what your doing, and are able to look through the turn, you'll be able to turn in complete circles with the handlebars cranked all the way over to the stops. (Slow speeds of course). I did this today on the bike as well (while solo).
Just stuff to think about, stuff that I'm always thinking about, and skills I'm constantly trying to hone. I can't say enough about the MSF course.
Ride safe brother, if'n you'd like some more interesting links on this stuff, I got a bunch!
Mac
#10
01-03-2005, 04:36 AM
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RE: Counter Steering on a Harley?
Mac
Let me get this straight
:
First, you were trying something new with a pillion passenger, your wife no less? [sm=smiley22.gif]
Second, you leaned to the right then proceeded to countersteer right which "threw" the bike into an opposite left lean and turn - opposite to your original right lean? [&o]
Well, full marks for enthusiasm, but I am not sure I would practice it that way, although its probably no big deal if you know what you are doing.
Since I dont have a bike at the moment I cannot practice anything right now. I can say that like in the USA, downunder we also have to practice countersteering in order to get a bike license (its part of the test), and we also have advanced rider training too. And Aus is not short of professional bike rider talent as you would know...sometimes I think Aus is the 54th state of the USA...
But, in my case, I have barely mastered countersteering and need to practice more be be fully confident. So alot of that info you and pococj have passed on to me is really helpful. And, yes, if you have anymore links like that last one I would be very interested.
I recently had to redo my bike license test because I let my old bike license expire (silly me). But I am back on a full bike license now and its on the same license as my car license (they used to be separate). This whole episode has been a blessing in disguise as the testing today is alot harder than when I did it the first time, and has made me realise I am not as good as I thought I was...in fact, after the test I left with a bruised ego. But all this has motivated me to take extra steps to master the essential skills. I am seriously thinking of doing the advanced course but first I need to do some bike riding on the road again to get back my "lost" skills.
I can say that if there is anyone out there reading this that cant to countersteering, they need to get with the program for their own safety...
I agree with "looking through the turn" and turning your and looking in the direction you are going. Something to practice until second nature...
Let me get this straight
:First, you were trying something new with a pillion passenger, your wife no less? [sm=smiley22.gif]
Second, you leaned to the right then proceeded to countersteer right which "threw" the bike into an opposite left lean and turn - opposite to your original right lean? [&o]
Well, full marks for enthusiasm, but I am not sure I would practice it that way, although its probably no big deal if you know what you are doing.
Since I dont have a bike at the moment I cannot practice anything right now. I can say that like in the USA, downunder we also have to practice countersteering in order to get a bike license (its part of the test), and we also have advanced rider training too. And Aus is not short of professional bike rider talent as you would know...sometimes I think Aus is the 54th state of the USA...
But, in my case, I have barely mastered countersteering and need to practice more be be fully confident. So alot of that info you and pococj have passed on to me is really helpful. And, yes, if you have anymore links like that last one I would be very interested.
I recently had to redo my bike license test because I let my old bike license expire (silly me). But I am back on a full bike license now and its on the same license as my car license (they used to be separate). This whole episode has been a blessing in disguise as the testing today is alot harder than when I did it the first time, and has made me realise I am not as good as I thought I was...in fact, after the test I left with a bruised ego. But all this has motivated me to take extra steps to master the essential skills. I am seriously thinking of doing the advanced course but first I need to do some bike riding on the road again to get back my "lost" skills.
I can say that if there is anyone out there reading this that cant to countersteering, they need to get with the program for their own safety...
I agree with "looking through the turn" and turning your and looking in the direction you are going. Something to practice until second nature...