ethanol in gasoline
#61
11-11-2011, 10:57 AM
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Location: Payson, AZ within 400 miles of the best the west has to offer for riders
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This is fun. I love it when informed people have a debate. My big problem with ethanol fuel is that I like Jack Daniels, and it pains me to see good "Corn Liquor" going into a motor vehicle.
#62
11-11-2011, 11:09 AM
#4 - Corn used to produce ethanol is not the same corn used in your food. Corn grown for consumption is completely different(sweet corn). The whole food vs. fuel debate is fueled by non-educated indivuals who do not understand anything about how the food, agriculture, or fuel industry works. There are BILLIONS of excess bushels of corn each year left over, and corn hybrids are continuing to improve and will increase this each year.
Educate yourselfs before you just jump on the pro or against ethanol bandwagons or make ridiculaous statements either way.
sweet or sour is not the argument. The major problem is the
acreage of the corn planted that goes to supply refiners, which
in turn leaves less for food use.
#63
11-11-2011, 11:17 AM
Yep. The issue is they're being subsidized to grow an inedible crop. Have you noticed what's been happening to food prices the last few years?
#64
11-11-2011, 12:38 PM
So much mis-information out there..
#1 - Ethanol mixes with water, which will "absorb" water and help prevent moisture buildup in your fuel system, not the other way around.
well that's exactly what's wrong, it attracts water, you don't want water in your system.
#2 - Ethanol will clean yoru fuel system, not clog it up. It will however, if you have varnish or other crap in your system from gasoline, it will remove it which can clog your fuel filter, etc. until it has been cleaned out. The "crap" is from the deposits left from the gasoline and carbon, not the ethanol.
No, ethanol is no different than any alcohol. Motorcycles historically
have had lined gas tank's, so have cars and alcohol will dissolve the
liner and clog things up. Only one example for now.
#3 - 87 Octane gasoline you buy today is not what it was 10 years ago. Before ethanol blending, refiners produced regular gasoline that left the refinery as 87 Octane. To reach necessary Octane levels in gasoline, refineries use reformers to achieve this utilizing aromatics such as Benzene(a knoown carcenogen). Today, with ethanol blending requirements, refiners are able to produce lower Octane gasoline at the refinery level(82-84 Octane), and blend it with the 10% ethanol(115 Octane) to achieve the necessary 87. In other words, gasoline leaving the refinery is lower quality, and only achieves the 87 Octane rating after being blended. This saves the refineries billions each year.
The only thing refiners make today by adding ethanol is incentive $$,
In fact, when I want ethanol free gas, I have to pay a premium
price for it. I use premium in my Roadking, 93 octane w/o ethanol
is approxamatly 11cts more per gallon.
#4 - Corn used to produce ethanol is not the same corn used in your food. Corn grown for consumption is completely different(sweet corn). The whole food vs. fuel debate is fueled by non-educated indivuals who do not understand anything about how the food, agriculture, or fuel industry works. There are BILLIONS of excess bushels of corn each year left over, and corn hybrids are continuing to improve and will increase this each year.
I addressed this one in a previous post above.
#5 - The $$$ incentives people talk about is the VETEC, or blenders credit. It is $.45 per gallon credit given to BLENDERS, not ethanol producers or farmers. The blenders are usually the petroleum companies, who are the ones who benefit from this. The VETEC is being repealed BTW, so you will see higher prices at the pump because of the petroleum companies wishing to sustain their current margins. It has nothing to do with the price of corn & the ethnol refiners are not subsidized financially in any way by the government.
Farmers are getting more for their corn to encourage them to ship to the ethanol industry, rather than to the food industry. Call it an incentive.
#6 - Correct...ethaonol is not compatable with standard rubber. Viton and teflon are better materials for use with fuels containing greater than 10% ethanol by volume.
OK
I run 10% ethanol is everything from my bike, ATV, mowers, weed eaters, vehicles, etc. without any noticable difference. Anyone saying otherwise is speaking out of their ***.
I've been known to do that, but you're doing quite well yourself.
I have also about 40,000 miles between 2 different FF vehicles running nothing but E85. Yes lower fuel mileage, but cleaper at the pump, so my cost per mile to run E85 vs. regular 87 is equal. However, I am producing more HP, running a cleaner engine, and emitting much less tail pipe emissions at the same time.
Maybe a shot or two of ethanol might clean up your emissions.
If refiners produced the same Octane gasoline they did 10 years ago, blended with 10% ethanol today, we would have about 95 Octane regualar gasoline at the pump! This would allow vehicle manufacturers to engineer and develop higher comression engines that would be more efficient in both power production and fuel efficiency.
This is not going to happend until the petroleum industry's hand is forced, which will eat at their margins.
They have been making gasoline above 100 octane for ever, they certainly don't need ethanol to do that.
Educate yourselfs before you just jump on the pro or against ethanol bandwagons or make ridiculaous statements either way.
#1 - Ethanol mixes with water, which will "absorb" water and help prevent moisture buildup in your fuel system, not the other way around.
well that's exactly what's wrong, it attracts water, you don't want water in your system.
#2 - Ethanol will clean yoru fuel system, not clog it up. It will however, if you have varnish or other crap in your system from gasoline, it will remove it which can clog your fuel filter, etc. until it has been cleaned out. The "crap" is from the deposits left from the gasoline and carbon, not the ethanol.
No, ethanol is no different than any alcohol. Motorcycles historically
have had lined gas tank's, so have cars and alcohol will dissolve the
liner and clog things up. Only one example for now.
#3 - 87 Octane gasoline you buy today is not what it was 10 years ago. Before ethanol blending, refiners produced regular gasoline that left the refinery as 87 Octane. To reach necessary Octane levels in gasoline, refineries use reformers to achieve this utilizing aromatics such as Benzene(a knoown carcenogen). Today, with ethanol blending requirements, refiners are able to produce lower Octane gasoline at the refinery level(82-84 Octane), and blend it with the 10% ethanol(115 Octane) to achieve the necessary 87. In other words, gasoline leaving the refinery is lower quality, and only achieves the 87 Octane rating after being blended. This saves the refineries billions each year.
The only thing refiners make today by adding ethanol is incentive $$,
In fact, when I want ethanol free gas, I have to pay a premium
price for it. I use premium in my Roadking, 93 octane w/o ethanol
is approxamatly 11cts more per gallon.
#4 - Corn used to produce ethanol is not the same corn used in your food. Corn grown for consumption is completely different(sweet corn). The whole food vs. fuel debate is fueled by non-educated indivuals who do not understand anything about how the food, agriculture, or fuel industry works. There are BILLIONS of excess bushels of corn each year left over, and corn hybrids are continuing to improve and will increase this each year.
I addressed this one in a previous post above.
#5 - The $$$ incentives people talk about is the VETEC, or blenders credit. It is $.45 per gallon credit given to BLENDERS, not ethanol producers or farmers. The blenders are usually the petroleum companies, who are the ones who benefit from this. The VETEC is being repealed BTW, so you will see higher prices at the pump because of the petroleum companies wishing to sustain their current margins. It has nothing to do with the price of corn & the ethnol refiners are not subsidized financially in any way by the government.
Farmers are getting more for their corn to encourage them to ship to the ethanol industry, rather than to the food industry. Call it an incentive.
#6 - Correct...ethaonol is not compatable with standard rubber. Viton and teflon are better materials for use with fuels containing greater than 10% ethanol by volume.
OK
I run 10% ethanol is everything from my bike, ATV, mowers, weed eaters, vehicles, etc. without any noticable difference. Anyone saying otherwise is speaking out of their ***.
I've been known to do that, but you're doing quite well yourself.
I have also about 40,000 miles between 2 different FF vehicles running nothing but E85. Yes lower fuel mileage, but cleaper at the pump, so my cost per mile to run E85 vs. regular 87 is equal. However, I am producing more HP, running a cleaner engine, and emitting much less tail pipe emissions at the same time.
Maybe a shot or two of ethanol might clean up your emissions.
If refiners produced the same Octane gasoline they did 10 years ago, blended with 10% ethanol today, we would have about 95 Octane regualar gasoline at the pump! This would allow vehicle manufacturers to engineer and develop higher comression engines that would be more efficient in both power production and fuel efficiency.
This is not going to happend until the petroleum industry's hand is forced, which will eat at their margins.
They have been making gasoline above 100 octane for ever, they certainly don't need ethanol to do that.
Educate yourselfs before you just jump on the pro or against ethanol bandwagons or make ridiculaous statements either way.
Last edited by Snarly; 11-11-2011 at 12:41 PM.
#65
11-11-2011, 12:58 PM
or oil, w/wo ethanol, will solve our high gas or food prices.
#67
11-11-2011, 02:17 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
The acerage used to supply the ethanol refiners also supplys the cattle and poulty industry with food for livestock in the form of DDGS, which in turn feeds you.
The amount of acreage used for corn for human consumption is also at it's saturation point. If more farmers could plant corn hybrids used to make corn meal and such for human consumption they would because the market value is greater.
#68
11-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Ethanol is responsible for roughly 10% of the increase in the price of foods containing corn or corn products & has no bearing on the costs of other foods. The other 90% is due to economic conditions, increased costs for transportation, and commodity prices of electricity and natural gas to manufacture food products.
#69
11-11-2011, 02:34 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
On your last point....yes, they are capable...they've been capable of producing 100+ octane fuel since the 60s, but they don't now because they don't HAVE to and it's much cheaper to refine lower octane fuels. Right, they don't need ethanol to make a high octane fuel, the point is they are now just making less and less octane fuel because the ethanol added brings it back up to where it is required to be at the pump. The petroleum refiners are just making more and more $$$ because of ethanol.
#70
11-11-2011, 02:41 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
On your last point....yes, they are capable...they've been capable of producing 100+ octane fuel since the 60s, but they don't now because they don't HAVE to and it's much cheaper to refine lower octane fuels. Right, they don't need ethanol to make a high octane fuel, the point is they are now just making less and less octane fuel because the ethanol added brings it back up to where it is required to be at the pump. The petroleum refiners are just making more and more $$$ because of ethanol.
The oil refiners are the ones getting rich off of ethanol..
Yes, it also benefits the farmers obviously with higher corn prices, but costs to produce that corn have also went up accordingly with increased diesel prices, and major increases in the price of chemicals and fertilizers, etc.
I'm not going to complain about farmers making more money...they deserve it, but that's another debabe.