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The countersteering thread...

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  #11  
Old 11-21-2006 | 11:30 AM
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whaap
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...

You guys are funny
 
  #12  
Old 11-21-2006 | 12:36 PM
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Harry Manback
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...

Okay, I am going to throw one at ya...

You gotta read Twist of the Wrist Vol II by Keith Code...

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vo.../dp/0918226317

Pivot Steering, is another way to turn an lean a bike quickly. Basically you push your outside knee hard against the tank, apply pressure to the outside peg and lean heavy to the inside. So to accomplish a left hand flick of the bike you would slam your right knee against the tank pushing heavy on your right board or peg, and lean heavy to the left.

You can see how it works going down the street, just mash your left or right knee into the tank. The bike should lean and turn slightly in the opposite direction.

Watch some GP racing, see how some guys are going into turns almost sideways; those guys counter steer. Then some guys go into the turn leaned way over, but track their bike in line, they pivot steer.

Pivot steering is best for sport bikes with a very tight rake, but I use the technique in slow speed quick maneuvers on my cruisers and the Ultra as well.
 
  #13  
Old 11-21-2006 | 12:40 PM
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Eyespy
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...


ORIGINAL: Harry Manback

Okay, I am going to throw one at ya...

You gotta read Twist of the Wrist Vol II by Keith Code...

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vo.../dp/0918226317

Pivot Steering, is another way to turn an lean a bike quickly. Basically you push your outside knee hard against the tank, apply pressure to the outside peg and lean heavy to the inside. So to accomplish a left hand flick of the bike you would slam your right knee against the tank pushing heavy on your right board or peg, and lean heavy to the left.

You can see how it works going down the street, just mash your left or right knee into the tank. The bike should lean and turn slightly in the opposite direction.

Watch some GP racing, see how some guys are going into turns almost sideways; those guys counter steer. Then some guys go into the turn leaned way over, but track their bike in line, they pivot steer.

Pivot steering is best for sport bikes with a very tight rake, but I use the technique in slow speed quick maneuvers on my cruisers and the Ultra as well.
Harry, you are completely mischaracterizing what Code refers to as Pivot Steering, and the way you have incorrectly described it is not what is taught at the California Superbike School. [8D]
 
  #14  
Old 11-21-2006 | 12:52 PM
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Harry Manback
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...

Are you stalking me?

I do not think I have mis-characterized the technique at all. Notice, I linked to the book and then I gave a short synopsis of the technique. I did not intend this to be a full lesson in the application of this technique, I was just throwing it out their to show that the push pull on the handlebar technique is not the only one out there. If anyone wishes to learn the full technique they should read the book themselves, and then take a class and practice.

My certificate from the California Superbike School tells me I got a good handle on the techniques they taught.

I did not think I had to put a disclaimer on every post, but maybe I should think about that from now on.


ORIGINAL: Eyespy


ORIGINAL: Harry Manback

Okay, I am going to throw one at ya...

You gotta read Twist of the Wrist Vol II by Keith Code...

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vo.../dp/0918226317

Pivot Steering, is another way to turn an lean a bike quickly. Basically you push your outside knee hard against the tank, apply pressure to the outside peg and lean heavy to the inside. So to accomplish a left hand flick of the bike you would slam your right knee against the tank pushing heavy on your right board or peg, and lean heavy to the left.

You can see how it works going down the street, just mash your left or right knee into the tank. The bike should lean and turn slightly in the opposite direction.

Watch some GP racing, see how some guys are going into turns almost sideways; those guys counter steer. Then some guys go into the turn leaned way over, but track their bike in line, they pivot steer.

Pivot steering is best for sport bikes with a very tight rake, but I use the technique in slow speed quick maneuvers on my cruisers and the Ultra as well.
Harry, you are completely mischaracterizing what Code refers to as Pivot Steering, and the way you have incorrectly described it is not what is taught at the California Superbike School. [8D]
 
  #15  
Old 11-21-2006 | 01:05 PM
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Eyespy
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...

No Harry, not stalking you, sorry if it came off that way.

There is nothing about slamming your knee into the tank to pull the bike over with pivot steering. This is not what Keith or any of the instructors teach. It's not what I teach. Pivot steering is not another way to steer, as you put it, as in an alternative to countersteering. That is not what is meant by pivot steering. Pivot steering, as described by Keith, is a way to gain mechanical advantage and increased efficiency in order to countersteer the motorcycle without wasted energy expenditure on the part of the rider. No amount of slamming your knee into the tank, or trying to "pull" the bike over with your knee, is going to effectively alter the bikes trajectory, it will not steer the bike. This has been effectively demonstrated with the No BS Bike. Pivot steering allows the rider to acheive stable contact points against the motorcycle so that his or her countersteering inputs are more directly transfered into efficient mechanical force application at the handlebars and the steering axis.
 
  #16  
Old 11-21-2006 | 01:16 PM
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Harry Manback
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...

No problem, I was just giving you a hard time.

I agree with every thing you said below...

In the context of race riding, and efficient use of force and energy you are right on. However, as I tried to say before I did not want it to seem like I was advocating the technique, or that I was an expert. My use of certain terminology such as slamming your knee etc. is simply my way of saying it.

That being said, in street situations; (while not taught by Code or the Superbike School necessarily) one can modify the technique and use it instead of countersteering. Yes, in race situations the ideal application of the technique is to use it in concert with countersteering.

I think we are on the same page here, just using different wording. I do agree that my own application of the technique may not ever be endorsed by Kieth Code. I use it very effectively. No one should use techniques such as this untill they have a firm grasp of the concept, and have safely executed them in a controlled environment.


ORIGINAL: Eyespy

No Harry, not stalking you, sorry if it came off that way.

There is nothing about slamming your knee into the tank to pull the bike over with pivot steering. This is not what Keith or any of the instructors teach. It's not what I teach. Pivot steering is not another way to steer, as you put it, as in an alternative to countersteering. That is not what is meant by pivot steering. Pivot steering, as described by Keith, is a way to gain mechanical advantage and increased efficiency in order to countersteer the motorcycle without wasted energy expenditure on the part of the rider. No amount of slamming your knee into the tank, or trying to "pull" the bike over with your knee, is going to effectively alter the bikes trajectory, it will not steer the bike. This has been effectively demonstrated with the No BS Bike. Pivot steering allows the rider to acheive stable contact points against the motorcycle so that his or her countersteering inputs are more directly transfered into efficient mechanical force application at the handlebars and the steering axis.
 
  #17  
Old 11-21-2006 | 01:29 PM
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Eyespy
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From: Southern California High Desert, here and there....
Default RE: The countersteering thread...


ORIGINAL: Harry Manback

No problem, I was just giving you a hard time.

I agree with every thing you said below...

In the context of race riding, and efficient use of force and energy you are right on. However, as I tried to say before I did not want it to seem like I was advocating the technique, or that I was an expert. My use of certain terminology such as slamming your knee etc. is simply my way of saying it.

That being said, in street situations; (while not taught by Code or the Superbike School necessarily) one can modify the technique and use it instead of countersteering. Yes, in race situations the ideal application of the technique is to use it in concert with countersteering.

I think we are on the same page here, just using different wording. I do agree that my own application of the technique may not ever be endorsed by Kieth Code. I use it very effectively. No one should use techniques such as this untill they have a firm grasp of the concept, and have safely executed them in a controlled environment.


ORIGINAL: Eyespy

No Harry, not stalking you, sorry if it came off that way.

There is nothing about slamming your knee into the tank to pull the bike over with pivot steering. This is not what Keith or any of the instructors teach. It's not what I teach. Pivot steering is not another way to steer, as you put it, as in an alternative to countersteering. That is not what is meant by pivot steering. Pivot steering, as described by Keith, is a way to gain mechanical advantage and increased efficiency in order to countersteer the motorcycle without wasted energy expenditure on the part of the rider. No amount of slamming your knee into the tank, or trying to "pull" the bike over with your knee, is going to effectively alter the bikes trajectory, it will not steer the bike. This has been effectively demonstrated with the No BS Bike. Pivot steering allows the rider to acheive stable contact points against the motorcycle so that his or her countersteering inputs are more directly transfered into efficient mechanical force application at the handlebars and the steering axis.

Thanks Harry, as I mentioned, I do not want to give the impression of hounding you. Riding techniques and the mechanics of controlling and steeering a motorcycle are among my favorite topics to discuss and explore. So, here we are! The only thing I would not agree with that you said above is that you can use the technique instead of countersteering. It would be very interesting experience if you have an opportunity to ride the No BS bike and see that, in the absense of countersteering, there is simply NO controlled steering. Yes, I have seen students at California Superbike School achieve crude and rudimentary deviations in direction on the No BS bike, but nothing you or I, or anyone else, would consider to be steering the bike. The various body steering techniques are useful adjucts to controlling a motorcycles steering and for making subtle mid-turn line corrections, reducing required lean angle in turns, but always in conjunction with countersteering, not as an alternative to it. BTW, thanks for the discussion, as I mentioned, one of my favorite and most comfortable subjects.
 
  #18  
Old 11-21-2006 | 01:33 PM
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Eyespy
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From: Southern California High Desert, here and there....
Default RE: The countersteering thread...

I should probably also point out that I have seen one CSS student actually ride the No BS Bike right off the skidpad and directly into a nearby building, who was so adament that he could steer the bike with his hands on the fixed bars. He even had an attitude after this incident and blamed Keith and the Bike as being unsafe and demanded a refund of his school tuition. That was sad and funny at the same time!!
 
  #19  
Old 11-21-2006 | 01:46 PM
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Harry Manback
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Default RE: The countersteering thread...

It has been a good exchange....

I too enjoy talking about the mechanics and riding styles.

If anyone is reading this and interested, it may be a good thing for them to see what the "No BS Bike" is all about

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

I have ridden this bike and I agree 100% with the premise, and with the application. Countersteering is a must.

In my riding I find that mixing up some of the things I have learned during my years riding sportbikes (including the old cafe bikes) and some of the realities I have learned riding these giant touring models helps. It is my experience that when riding a bike and using some body steering the bike in essense countersteers on its own. The NO BS bike does not allow this action. Basically the caster of the front wheel along with the steering head allow the bike to do its thing. Countersteering has always been described as counter intuitive, moving one's body to effect steering is intuitive. I find that in some situations moving my knee and leg has a more drastic and quick effect on the bike. I know that I am not entirely in tune with Code and other professional riders here, but they fall down way more than I do. All that being said, when I am on it, and I am in the corners, I am countersteering, and I am also throwin my body into it.

I do want to be real clear here, if a rider does not understand countersteering they are in danger.


ORIGINAL: Eyespy


Thanks Harry, as I mentioned, I do not want to give the impression of hounding you. Riding techniques and the mechanics of controlling and steeering a motorcycle are among my favorite topics to discuss and explore. So, here we are! The only thing I would not agree with that you said above is that you can use the technique instead of countersteering. It would be very interesting experience if you have an opportunity to ride the No BS bike and see that, in the absense of countersteering, there is simply NO controlled steering. Yes, I have seen students at California Superbike School achieve crude and rudimentary deviations in direction on the No BS bike, but nothing you or I, or anyone else, would consider to be steering the bike. The various body steering techniques are useful adjucts to controlling a motorcycles steering and for making subtle mid-turn line corrections, reducing required lean angle in turns, but always in conjunction with countersteering, not as an alternative to it. BTW, thanks for the discussion, as I mentioned, one of my favorite and most comfortable subjects.
 
  #20  
Old 11-21-2006 | 02:42 PM
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77Tulsa
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From: Wichita but from Tulsa
Default RE: The countersteering thread...

I was in a how to ride school once back in 62. My big brother put me on his schwin and shoved me down the driveway and told me to pedal like hell and turn before you hit the curb on the other side of the street. And its been just like that every since, throttle it like hell and turn before you hit something!!! just my .02$. Oh and that was a super bike school "26" schwin"???
 


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