Water Cooled vs. Air Cooled
#31
Were you around for that technology too?.................LOL
#32
Please post audio/video of Evo making a potato sound.
#33
EPA does not mandate how emission levels are achieved. They set the levels and industry finds the way to be in compliance.
Don't forget that there is a huge number of air cooled aircraft motors out there.
The same displacement motor with the same level of tune generates the same amount of heat. It is how the heat is dissipated that is different.
Water cooled motorcycles are not without heat complaints. For 2010 Kawasaki went to a 1700 cc motor and changed from a drive shaft to belt drive. The frame was shortened some with the belt drive. Riders started having heat complaints right away. For 2011 the company rerouted flow from the radiator. They had the same problem with their sports tourer the Concours.
Over the generations Honda has modified the flow from its radiators also. 2012 brought changes to insure that the flow did not go back onto the passenger as it had on earlier models.
The technology with metallurgy and oil engineering is to the point that no oil is like it was 10 years ago. There is no advantage to water cooled over air cooled at all. In fact there are more disadvantages.
It is time to organize like ABATE originally did for helmets to lobby Congress for legislation to exempt or limit regulation of motor cycle emissions.
Voting will get you what you want. We must get together and fight for this one.
By the way for those that said they would buy a water cooled HD. They have been doing that for ten years now. Go get one. They are awesome.
Then you will learn that heat from a water cooled bike stuck in traffic and the fan kicks in, you will be blasted which MORE heat than the TC engine will give you.
Don't forget that there is a huge number of air cooled aircraft motors out there.
The same displacement motor with the same level of tune generates the same amount of heat. It is how the heat is dissipated that is different.
Water cooled motorcycles are not without heat complaints. For 2010 Kawasaki went to a 1700 cc motor and changed from a drive shaft to belt drive. The frame was shortened some with the belt drive. Riders started having heat complaints right away. For 2011 the company rerouted flow from the radiator. They had the same problem with their sports tourer the Concours.
Over the generations Honda has modified the flow from its radiators also. 2012 brought changes to insure that the flow did not go back onto the passenger as it had on earlier models.
The technology with metallurgy and oil engineering is to the point that no oil is like it was 10 years ago. There is no advantage to water cooled over air cooled at all. In fact there are more disadvantages.
It is time to organize like ABATE originally did for helmets to lobby Congress for legislation to exempt or limit regulation of motor cycle emissions.
Voting will get you what you want. We must get together and fight for this one.
By the way for those that said they would buy a water cooled HD. They have been doing that for ten years now. Go get one. They are awesome.
Then you will learn that heat from a water cooled bike stuck in traffic and the fan kicks in, you will be blasted which MORE heat than the TC engine will give you.
Last edited by lh4x4; 09-10-2011 at 10:52 PM.
#34
Listen up guys... water cooling blows. Right up there with shaft drive as a worthless idea.
(Uh, why does he say this?)
Cause water cooling concentrates all the heat coming through the radiator ducts towards your shins. It has a bunch more parts ands things that can break. Look, if you are riding a Harley it is because of the art of the bike. If you want hyper performance, get a Hayabusa. Like i have along with two Harleys.
Once again, everybody! Water cooling blows...
(Uh, why does he say this?)
Cause water cooling concentrates all the heat coming through the radiator ducts towards your shins. It has a bunch more parts ands things that can break. Look, if you are riding a Harley it is because of the art of the bike. If you want hyper performance, get a Hayabusa. Like i have along with two Harleys.
Once again, everybody! Water cooling blows...
#35
Correlation is not causation.
The majority of water-cooled bikes are sportbikes spinning 5,000+ RPM on the freeway because they're geared for acceleration, not for economy. Gearing is the reason why the water-cooled metrics get lower mileage, it has nothing to do with the choice of engine cooling method.
While I agree in theory that water-cooling is "one more system to potentially go wrong" I really don't see an issue in practice. I've never had a problem with a cooling system on any of my cars in hundreds of thousands of miles of driving and I don't see why I'd suddenly have a problem with a water-cooling system on a bike. As long as Harley kept the cylinder bank angle and crank design the same, the sound wouldn't change either.
Still, the benefits of water-cooling are also often over-stated. Water-cooled bikes still radiate heat, it just comes from the radiator and not the engine. And since many water-cooled bikes don't have a radiator fan, they will still overheat if stuck in traffic for too long. Those bikes that do have a radiator fan often end up simply blowing the radiator's heat onto the rider's legs.
Frankly, I look at the whole thing as six in one and a half-dozen in the other.
The majority of water-cooled bikes are sportbikes spinning 5,000+ RPM on the freeway because they're geared for acceleration, not for economy. Gearing is the reason why the water-cooled metrics get lower mileage, it has nothing to do with the choice of engine cooling method.
While I agree in theory that water-cooling is "one more system to potentially go wrong" I really don't see an issue in practice. I've never had a problem with a cooling system on any of my cars in hundreds of thousands of miles of driving and I don't see why I'd suddenly have a problem with a water-cooling system on a bike. As long as Harley kept the cylinder bank angle and crank design the same, the sound wouldn't change either.
Still, the benefits of water-cooling are also often over-stated. Water-cooled bikes still radiate heat, it just comes from the radiator and not the engine. And since many water-cooled bikes don't have a radiator fan, they will still overheat if stuck in traffic for too long. Those bikes that do have a radiator fan often end up simply blowing the radiator's heat onto the rider's legs.
Frankly, I look at the whole thing as six in one and a half-dozen in the other.
I won't argue that a water cooled engine should last longer than an air cooled one, and make more power. I was just disagreeing with the OP's fuel mileage theory.
#36
Revolution doesn't have the same degree cylinder design as the air
cooled engines. It doesn't even come close to the potato-potato exhaust wave of all the other HD two cylinder air cooled engines. The revolution sounds like a prius------------which sounds like a lawn mower.
cooled engines. It doesn't even come close to the potato-potato exhaust wave of all the other HD two cylinder air cooled engines. The revolution sounds like a prius------------which sounds like a lawn mower.
While I agree in theory that water-cooling is "one more system to potentially go wrong" I really don't see an issue in practice. I've never had a problem with a cooling system on any of my cars in hundreds of thousands of miles of driving and I don't see why I'd suddenly have a problem with a water-cooling system on a bike. As long as Harley kept the cylinder bank angle and crank design the same, the sound wouldn't change either.
Still, the benefits of water-cooling are also often over-stated. Water-cooled bikes still radiate heat, it just comes from the radiator and not the engine. And since many water-cooled bikes don't have a radiator fan, they will still overheat if stuck in traffic for too long. Those bikes that do have a radiator fan often end up simply blowing the radiator's heat onto the rider's legs.
Then you will learn that heat from a water cooled bike stuck in traffic and the fan kicks in, you will be blasted which MORE heat than the TC engine will give you.
Last edited by Deuuuce; 09-10-2011 at 11:38 PM.
#37
OK, here's my question. Isn't the heat proportionate to the compression? I have no idea, so thats why I ask but wouldn't just lowering the compression a point eliminate quite a bit of heat. YES, you would loose some power, but with todays engines being as large as they are wouldn't the trade off be better than a cooling system? Honestly, just asking.
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#38
OK, here's my question. Isn't the heat proportionate to the compression? I have no idea, so thats why I ask but wouldn't just lowering the compression a point eliminate quite a bit of heat. YES, you would loose some power, but with todays engines being as large as they are wouldn't the trade off be better than a cooling system? Honestly, just asking.
The 103ci is equivalent to a 412ci V-8 or a 6.76 liter.
It's already an underpowered motor, a lower compression ratio would make it horribly obsolete.
#39
For me, I can't afford an Indian and would never be caught in public on a Victory or Can-Am. And we won't even mention the metric cruisers! I guess I'd have to consider smaller manufacturers.
On second thought... If I had to make a choice between a water cooled Harley and an air cooled V-Twin from a company like Orange County Choppers, I think I'd take my chances with the water cooled Harley!
On second thought... If I had to make a choice between a water cooled Harley and an air cooled V-Twin from a company like Orange County Choppers, I think I'd take my chances with the water cooled Harley!
I'm not trying to suggest any solutions or answers for you or anybody else. You watercooled guys can do what you want! I'm stating the fact, that I will never own a water cooled Harley Davidson.
I have a real problem imagining why any long time or "hardcore" Harley rider would even want to consider water cooled Harleys. There are too many other options out there. If the MoCo decides to watercool, they are not going to consult with me, so that takes it pretty much out of my hands, other than to say "I'll never buy one of them", yes I'll still ride a Harley, and will as long as I can swing my leg over one!
#40
I'm no engineer, so this is layman's speculation. But the addition of a cooling system would add significant weight--for the radiator, fan and fan motor (if so equipped), thermostat, etc. and the coolant. (Water weighs 8 pounds per gallon, have no idea about water/antifreeze mix.) So adding a system like that to the same sized engine would decrease the power to weight ratio, wouldn't it?
And how about this lawsuit--radiator hose breaks and shoots superheated water and steam onto motorcyclists legs. When a hose breaks in a cage, the spray is contained by to the engine compartment.
Just like McDonalds can't make cold coffee so you can safely spill it in your lap, Harley can't make a cool engine so that you can safely touch the pipes after it has been running.
And how about this lawsuit--radiator hose breaks and shoots superheated water and steam onto motorcyclists legs. When a hose breaks in a cage, the spray is contained by to the engine compartment.
Just like McDonalds can't make cold coffee so you can safely spill it in your lap, Harley can't make a cool engine so that you can safely touch the pipes after it has been running.