you still don't have your brain wrapped around it.

when you are countersteering, you are pressing on the handlebar on the side of the direction that you want to go. you keep your head and eyes up, and looking through the turn at where you want to go. you continue to press in that direction until your turn is finished and then you straighten up by pressing on the handlebar on the opposite side until you're straight up again.

 

When you enter a sweeping *leaning* left hand turn and apply pressure to the left grip you are in effect countersteering. Most do it without even knowing it. As to braking. I brake and downshift on approach and gradually accelerate out of the turn. Overthinking your riding is an accident waiting to happen. I learn something almost every day i ride about how i could be doing things better.

 

I'll end the topic with a bit of advice. If you want to learn advanced riding techniques then you need to get educated. As mention before there are a lot of schools out there for every kind of bike. I've been to a Keith Code course his school put on for military riders both on my Harley and a Superbike. Also pick up a book. A Twist of the Wrist I and II are super informative. It's not all about being fast, its about technique. Trailbraking and counter steering should be part of daily riding. As well as body position and clutch/ throttle control. I tried teaching myself to be fast and ended up on my ***. You can never have enough experience and education. I ride everyday.

 

I think some people think about this **** waaaay too much. You have to get to the point where you "just do it", without thinking.

 

This makes for good convo here and some good information is being passed, but seriously. None of us are riding MOTOGP bikes. We're on harleys. Some of us ride hard and some don't some do this without even knowing and some of us know exactly what we're doing. Honestly though, for most riders to concern themselves with all of this is just over-complicating the task of getting out and enjoying the ride.

 

video of harley rider that is using all the information he got from this forum on countersteering, breaking in a curve, and taking the MSF course. He must of been busy trying to process all of the things he learned as he was making the turn.






http://youtu.be/57JwGSD8h-w

 

Because we are riding HDs with low ground clearance, it's even more important to understand these techniques, because the ability to correct a mistake in corner is really limited - You just can't lean over the side and tighten the turn (floorboard bracket scrapes & your done). There is a similar discussion taking place on the I hate single rotor brakes thread. There were some things said that I had never heard before, so did some additional research. Unfortunately, in S. FL, there are no advanced riding courses scheduled - they advertise on the internet, but when you call, they say there is not enough interest. The Ride like a Pro and Mean Street DVDs are excellent!

Counter steering: I found the best way for me to understand and experience counter-steering is find an empty road and practice weaving left to right and back in your lane at about 25 - 45, while sitting upright (don't lean), only using one hand. When you don't lean, you are only using counter-steering to control the bike. When you use one hand, it becomes very easy to isolate the input of pushing & pulling on the handlebars and the resulting movement of the bike. We have all been doing it naturally, but this exercise really helps solidify how it works and starts to build some muscle memory. The advantage of being cognitively aware of counter-steering, is now you can use it in emergency situations, including riding into a corner that is tighter than expected. Contrary to popular belief, the most common accident reported is "failure to negotiate a turn."

Locked up Rear Wheel: What to do when you lockup the rear tire in an emergency stop - if the bike is under control (ie not fishtailing, most people should not let off the brake. Letting off the brake, can cause the rear tire to loose all traction and result in a "highside fall" - terrifying. Near the end of a Wiki article: "Because highsider accidents are so much more deadly than lowside accidents, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends that if a rider locks the rear brake at higher speeds and the traction is good the brake should not be released." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highsider

Coordinating braking: I was always taught to use front and rear brakes together; this makes sense for most riding, but after doing some research, turns out good bike handling is much more complicated. The Ride Like a Pro DVD advocates avoiding the front brake altogether in slow speed maneuvering - Slip the clutch, keep RPM up and ride rear brake to control speed. The following site (excepts below) does a good job of describing when to use either front or rear brake in riding conditions which would be challenging for my Fatboy (e.g. I'm looking forward to doing TN next year). The article's introduction indicates proper braking is typically taught in Europe, but not the US:

Adjust the speed From time to time, you will misjudge a corner. The corner is tighter than it seemed, or it has a decreasing radius, or the surface of the road doesn't seem trustworthy. In that case, the best way to adjust your speed is to keep the throttle the same, and touch the rear brake slightly. When you do that, the bike will not try to get upright. Instead, it will even turn in a bit more, and that's exactly what you need. (To help the bike a bit more, push it with your knee into the direction that it should go.) My additional thoughts: touching the rear break preloads the fork, which sets up to more safely use the front brake in you really need to decelerate. This would also be a good time apply some counter steering.

Really Brake - But sometimes it is necessary to really brake hard, while in a corner, You meet a combine, for instance, halfway the corner, or a cow. What to do:

- The front brake Really brake hard in a corner is possible. You should use the front brake. You will almost never ride to the limit on the road, so there is room to brake, and even to brake rather hard, without going down. My additional thoughts: the thinking here is applying the rear brake will most likely cause it to lose traction because the weight of the bike is way forward on your front wheel. The longer the wheel-base, the less true this is (best advice is practice a few panic stops at 25 mph in an empty parking lot to see how your bike behaves).

- Pull the clutch If you don't pull the clutch while you squeeze the front brake in a corner, your bike will sit upright and steer out of the corner. That is not always what you want. That's why you need to pull the clutch, and you should actively push the bike into the corner, with your outside knee.

- Practice You should practice braking in a corner as well, from time to time. You will get experienced with what is possible, and you will automatically do what's necessary when it's needed.

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/#corner

Reading a little more, also confirmed my theory that the 200mm tire on the FB might look really good, but for the most part it actually reduces traction. "Normal force" is a component of traction and I'm of the opinion in typical riding scenarios (e.g. rain, short stops), the increased surface area decreases the pounds per square inch on the larger contact patch (i.e. Normal force). It seems in my limited experience, the impact of reduction in normal force is greater than the increased static friction of the larger contact patch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_force

In typically driving, I always downshift, but in emergency conditions, my personal opinion is to pull in the clutch and achieve more accurate control of deceleration with the brakes; one less thing your brain has to process during the emergency. The maximum amount of braking you can apply is based on the stability of the contact patch you have on your front and rear tire - the brakes can apply the same or more braking ability than downshifting, but it is easier to feather and control. The above site also talks at length about downshifting in turns and going down mountains.

As always, thanks to those that take the time to write responses to these threads and help us become both better riders and mechanics. Cheers, Kevin.

 

A few years ago I was lucky to ride in Italy with a group of very skilled riders; some were amature racers; one was a M/C magazine editor...we were all on BMW's...I was taught more about countersteering, looking through the turn and trail braking then I even had a clue about before the ride...as many are saying here; you gotta get out and do it. Returning home, I was a little dismayed at the handling difference as I got back on my FXDXT and hit a few curves...but was sure grateful for receiving some excellent instruction. The trail braking, in particular, did not translate well at all from the other bike (where it was very effective thru the curves) but it all proves that we can learn more if we want to.....

 

FWIW I've been experimenting with a "Gyrocam" - a gyro-stabilized camera like Rossi and some others have in motoGP, that shows how the bike leans in turns. Only for less than $200 instead of $10,000....

Just did my first test using my SV650, which is pretty close-coupled so you can see some of the steering inputs. You'll see the horizon stays level. Not a great example because I was making S turns to see how the system worked, but holds some promise to see what really goes on when you corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfZFmB-sfts

 

I totally agree. Then it turns into an insult-fest.

I definitely have my opinions, and I know what has served me well for over 40 years of riding. But, I still seek out expert advice - by reading books written by experts. Even the experts don't all agree, so you have to choose someone you trust.

As I have mentioned in other threads, I'm reading Proficient Motorcycling by David L Haugh. I like the way he explains advanced techniques and he has a good reputation in the industry. I will say that sometimes he is a bit opinionated, like when he talks about "dress code" - Biker bad, Rider good type stuff. But, aside from that he covers it pretty well right down to acknowledging that cruisers have a different weight distribution and braking is done a little differently vs a metric. It was twenty-five bucks well spent.

One step better is to take a reputable advanced rider course, which is not the same as a MSF course. I plan on doing one soon.