Do you downshift or use your brakes?
#121
11-03-2006, 09:48 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
JMXP, I think I had the same argument with these guys you did. I tried to point out:
1) if todays back brakes are strong enough to lock the back tire, you're not getting any more breaking from downshifting. In fact, if you only downshift, you're losing brake time when shifting
2) both cars and bikes needed to downshift on long decents because you'd burn out your brakes. Good to do even today, but with disks on both wheels, optional not required. With old brakes, you'd go right on past the red light at the bottom of the hill....
3) when downshifting, the inexperienced, or even experienced riders, on slippery roads (even possibly on nice dry roads), could lock the rear wheel easily.
4) people downshifted because the tranny's required it and the brakes sucked. those things have changed. the only thing that hasn't is the perception that downshifting is the right way to ride. that was 40 years ago.
5) even if you do it well, coming off the clutch and using engine braking (cause most of us who ride well downshift to the correct gear as slowing) puts some additional wear and tear on the tranny. Yes it's the same as shifting. Yes it's easy if done by a pro. But every clutch and tranny only have so many shifts in them until something breaks.
I don't beleive there is anything wrong with downshifting except for some un-needed wear and tear. I think that if you do downshift you should still use the rear brake. However, I don't believe it pays to teach new riders to regularly "engine brake" given todays bike technology (they should know for hills). It's not necessary. It's not the defacto "right way to ride".
1) if todays back brakes are strong enough to lock the back tire, you're not getting any more breaking from downshifting. In fact, if you only downshift, you're losing brake time when shifting
2) both cars and bikes needed to downshift on long decents because you'd burn out your brakes. Good to do even today, but with disks on both wheels, optional not required. With old brakes, you'd go right on past the red light at the bottom of the hill....
3) when downshifting, the inexperienced, or even experienced riders, on slippery roads (even possibly on nice dry roads), could lock the rear wheel easily.
4) people downshifted because the tranny's required it and the brakes sucked. those things have changed. the only thing that hasn't is the perception that downshifting is the right way to ride. that was 40 years ago.
5) even if you do it well, coming off the clutch and using engine braking (cause most of us who ride well downshift to the correct gear as slowing) puts some additional wear and tear on the tranny. Yes it's the same as shifting. Yes it's easy if done by a pro. But every clutch and tranny only have so many shifts in them until something breaks.
I don't beleive there is anything wrong with downshifting except for some un-needed wear and tear. I think that if you do downshift you should still use the rear brake. However, I don't believe it pays to teach new riders to regularly "engine brake" given todays bike technology (they should know for hills). It's not necessary. It's not the defacto "right way to ride".
#122
11-03-2006, 10:47 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
Man, you are wrong on so many points and I don't really want to take half a day responding. Here is a quick response. It would take forever to teach an inexperienced rider so I am not suggesting that. I always use my brakes while downshifting thus not straining either system and still warning those behind me that I am stopping. Therefore I dont "loose braking time". An experienced rider DOES NOT lock up the rear tire while downshifting. We know enough to adjust our riding style according to the weather conditions. You admit yourself that it is good to downshift on long decents. I say it is good other times too. I have never replaced a clutch on any bike in my life and I started riding at 8 years old, was using a clutch by 13 years old, and I am now 45. You cant tell me that it wears out the clutch.
Most every point you make is accurate if you apply it to an inexperienced rider. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT INEXPERIENCED RIDERS. As I said before, I believe downshifting is a more advanced method of riding. Any expert or service tech would agree and most of them if not all of them use the technique themselves!!!![sm=closed.gif]
Most every point you make is accurate if you apply it to an inexperienced rider. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT INEXPERIENCED RIDERS. As I said before, I believe downshifting is a more advanced method of riding. Any expert or service tech would agree and most of them if not all of them use the technique themselves!!!![sm=closed.gif]
ORIGINAL: nine11c2
JMXP, I think I had the same argument with these guys you did. I tried to point out:
1) if todays back brakes are strong enough to lock the back tire, you're not getting any more breaking from downshifting. In fact, if you only downshift, you're losing brake time when shifting
2) both cars and bikes needed to downshift on long decents because you'd burn out your brakes. Good to do even today, but with disks on both wheels, optional not required. With old brakes, you'd go right on past the red light at the bottom of the hill....
3) when downshifting, the inexperienced, or even experienced riders, on slippery roads (even possibly on nice dry roads), could lock the rear wheel easily.
4) people downshifted because the tranny's required it and the brakes sucked. those things have changed. the only thing that hasn't is the perception that downshifting is the right way to ride. that was 40 years ago.
5) even if you do it well, coming off the clutch and using engine braking (cause most of us who ride well downshift to the correct gear as slowing) puts some additional wear and tear on the tranny. Yes it's the same as shifting. Yes it's easy if done by a pro. But every clutch and tranny only have so many shifts in them until something breaks.
I don't beleive there is anything wrong with downshifting except for some un-needed wear and tear. I think that if you do downshift you should still use the rear brake. However, I don't believe it pays to teach new riders to regularly "engine brake" given todays bike technology (they should know for hills). It's not necessary. It's not the defacto "right way to ride".
JMXP, I think I had the same argument with these guys you did. I tried to point out:
1) if todays back brakes are strong enough to lock the back tire, you're not getting any more breaking from downshifting. In fact, if you only downshift, you're losing brake time when shifting
2) both cars and bikes needed to downshift on long decents because you'd burn out your brakes. Good to do even today, but with disks on both wheels, optional not required. With old brakes, you'd go right on past the red light at the bottom of the hill....
3) when downshifting, the inexperienced, or even experienced riders, on slippery roads (even possibly on nice dry roads), could lock the rear wheel easily.
4) people downshifted because the tranny's required it and the brakes sucked. those things have changed. the only thing that hasn't is the perception that downshifting is the right way to ride. that was 40 years ago.
5) even if you do it well, coming off the clutch and using engine braking (cause most of us who ride well downshift to the correct gear as slowing) puts some additional wear and tear on the tranny. Yes it's the same as shifting. Yes it's easy if done by a pro. But every clutch and tranny only have so many shifts in them until something breaks.
I don't beleive there is anything wrong with downshifting except for some un-needed wear and tear. I think that if you do downshift you should still use the rear brake. However, I don't believe it pays to teach new riders to regularly "engine brake" given todays bike technology (they should know for hills). It's not necessary. It's not the defacto "right way to ride".
#123
11-03-2006, 10:58 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
I think more "experienced" folk use it because you had to do it 30 years ago - you don't need to do it now. Proves my point that it's thought "correct" in bike lore, but modern technology has made it un-neccessary. The argument that you've never replaced a clutch doesn't hold water - it causes more wear and tear. You're adding shifts and pull on the drivetrain. I note you're stuck on clutch. How about primary belts? Drive belts? Bearings?
Most riders out there are "good". It's a bell curve. I don't recommend it for "good".
Just one point. Engine Braking. Not down shifting - because all "good" riders shift down to a gear they could accelerate from, but engine braking - letting the clutch out in those gears. What does it do? What BENEFIT do you get? Cause like I say - if the rear brake can lock the back wheel on a modern bike - WHY DO IT? You say over and over it's right but you don't SAY WHAT BENEFIT it gives (ENGINE BRAKING)...
Damn - I've picked up the argument again...
Most riders out there are "good". It's a bell curve. I don't recommend it for "good".
Just one point. Engine Braking. Not down shifting - because all "good" riders shift down to a gear they could accelerate from, but engine braking - letting the clutch out in those gears. What does it do? What BENEFIT do you get? Cause like I say - if the rear brake can lock the back wheel on a modern bike - WHY DO IT? You say over and over it's right but you don't SAY WHAT BENEFIT it gives (ENGINE BRAKING)...
Damn - I've picked up the argument again...
#124
11-05-2006, 05:42 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
#125
11-05-2006, 05:45 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
AS LONG AS THE CLUTCH IS RELEASED SLOWLY HOW THE HELL CAN ONE LOCK UP THE REAR WHEEL?? Clutch in, wait for the revs to fall, cluttch out slowly. How the hell can tthis lock up the rear wheel??? Learn tto ride before postting such idiotic commentts.
#126
11-05-2006, 07:04 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
Amen!
ORIGINAL: dynalowride
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
#127
11-05-2006, 10:49 AM
Extreme HDF Member
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
Let an experienced one pipe in here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
come to that corner hard,,,,,,,,,
down shift once,shift weight to inside,, whick that throttle to the hilt,,
and ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
POWER SLIDE YOUR WAY THROUGH THAT CORNER!!!!!
YEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWW!!!!
ITS YOUR FOR THE TAKIN!!!!!!
ILL BE WAITING FOR YOU AT THE CHECKERS!!!
come to that corner hard,,,,,,,,,
down shift once,shift weight to inside,, whick that throttle to the hilt,,
and ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
POWER SLIDE YOUR WAY THROUGH THAT CORNER!!!!!
YEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWW!!!!
ITS YOUR FOR THE TAKIN!!!!!!
ILL BE WAITING FOR YOU AT THE CHECKERS!!!
#129
11-05-2006, 11:14 AM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
ORIGINAL: dynalowride
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
AS LONG AS THE CLUTCH IS RELEASED SLOWLY HOW THE HELL CAN ONE LOCK UP THE REAR WHEEL?? Clutch in, wait for the revs to fall, cluttch out slowly. How the hell can tthis lock up the rear wheel??? Learn tto ride before postting such idiotic commentts.
I have heard "it's the right way" and I and others have responded "because 40 years ago you had to because of the horrible tranny's and brakes and it's been passed on". I've heard NO CONCRETE REASONS which kinda proves my point - I say you do it because you learned to do it when you learned to ride at an early age and because those who taught you had to do it on their older bikes. It'(Engine Braking) is just not needed with a modern motorcycle. It's completely optional.
#130
11-05-2006, 01:14 PM
RE: Do you downshift or use your brakes?
We don't have "MODERN MOTORCYCLES", we have HARLEYS!!! [sm=joke.gif]
ORIGINAL: nine11c2
First, when you have to accelerate you let the clutch out and accelerate. We all downshift to the right gear. The question, listen careful, is whether you engine brake. If you don't engine brake, you save yourself thousands of times putting strain on clutch, tranny, gears, belts, etc. I apprieciate that "I'm wrong in so many ways", and "how can you lock the rear wheel" (catch the wrong gear once, and you will). What I'm asking is, if ENGINE BRAKING is the right way to ride, and you can get as much braking as you need from a modern rear brake, tell me concrete "so many" REASONS why ENGINE BRAKING is better (other than on a long downhill)???
I have heard "it's the right way" and I and others have responded "because 40 years ago you had to because of the horrible tranny's and brakes and it's been passed on". I've heard NO CONCRETE REASONS which kinda proves my point - I say you do it because you learned to do it when you learned to ride at an early age and because those who taught you had to do it on their older bikes. It'(Engine Braking) is just not needed with a modern motorcycle. It's completely optional.
ORIGINAL: dynalowride
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
I'm sorry butt whoever it is thats saying downshifting or engine braking is bad is so wrong in so many ways. Lets say you just clutch in and brake. If you have to accelerate again what do you do? Release the clutch slowly so the gear engages rightt? Is that not the same thing you are doing when downshifting? If tthis technique is indeed bad for the trannyy or whatever, then man maybe I should justt invent an automatic harley davidson, then my worries will be over. And let me add something else. As long as you dont hit the rev limiter after performing a downshift you are fine. For example, you wouldn't want to be in 6th gear going 60 mph tthen downshift tto 2nd. But from 6th tto 5th then 4th tto 3rd is normal driving. Is it not? Sheesh.
AS LONG AS THE CLUTCH IS RELEASED SLOWLY HOW THE HELL CAN ONE LOCK UP THE REAR WHEEL?? Clutch in, wait for the revs to fall, cluttch out slowly. How the hell can tthis lock up the rear wheel??? Learn tto ride before postting such idiotic commentts.
I have heard "it's the right way" and I and others have responded "because 40 years ago you had to because of the horrible tranny's and brakes and it's been passed on". I've heard NO CONCRETE REASONS which kinda proves my point - I say you do it because you learned to do it when you learned to ride at an early age and because those who taught you had to do it on their older bikes. It'(Engine Braking) is just not needed with a modern motorcycle. It's completely optional.