Engines in Dyna and Softail
#11
12-15-2010 | 12:42 PM
There's also the different way the "block" hooks up to the different transmissions, and oil lines (or lack thereof).
But the above is a great explanation.
And it makes me wonder why all of the models don't use the balanced motor. The power loss isn't more than a couple Ft.Lbs. Cost, perhaps?
Of course, as smooth and comfortable as my Softail was, I actually kind of like the vibrating. It's smooth at speed, but the idle vibration is like a physical representation of the bike & it's power. Hell, maybe that's why.
But the above is a great explanation.
And it makes me wonder why all of the models don't use the balanced motor. The power loss isn't more than a couple Ft.Lbs. Cost, perhaps?
Of course, as smooth and comfortable as my Softail was, I actually kind of like the vibrating. It's smooth at speed, but the idle vibration is like a physical representation of the bike & it's power. Hell, maybe that's why.
#12
12-15-2010 | 12:52 PM
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Is it documented that there is a power loss of 10% +/-?
It makes sense, I guess, because of the additional rotating mass but rather than common sense or guess work, has this been demonstrated or proven.
Inquiring minds want to know
It makes sense, I guess, because of the additional rotating mass but rather than common sense or guess work, has this been demonstrated or proven.
Inquiring minds want to know
#13
12-15-2010 | 12:57 PM
Big Kahuna HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,881
Likes: 32
From: USA
The 96B motor with the counter balancers is made for women and metrosexuals whose fingers get all "tingly" from vibration and installed into a motorcycle frame that is designated "soft" while the 96A is a real Harley Davidson Vtwin engine and made for male bikers who generally have a higher level of libido. 
Pretty simple explanation really......
Pretty simple explanation really......
#14
12-15-2010 | 01:11 PM
Ok, just pulled out the owner's manuals, and they do say my 10 Steet Glide has 92.6 Ft Lbs (well, if it was still the 96A motor), and my wife's 10 Fat Boy has 89 And my 08 Night Train had 87.9 and wife's now-deceased 09 Low Rider had 92 ft lbs even.
Comparing the numbers, that's roughly 9.5%.....so I guess that's close. Just doesn't seem "that much" until I did the math.
#15
12-15-2010 | 01:47 PM
Road Captain
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 509
Likes: 10
From: Bristol, England.
The 96B motor with the counter balancers is made for women and metrosexuals whose fingers get all "tingly" from vibration and installed into a motorcycle frame that is designated "soft" while the 96A is a real Harley Davidson Vtwin engine and made for male bikers who generally have a higher level of libido.
Pretty simple explanation really......
Pretty simple explanation really......
#17
12-15-2010 | 10:41 PM
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 832
Likes: 221
From: Bridgeport, CT
I can see the logic of it being more like 10%
Ok, just pulled out the owner's manuals, and they do say my 10 Steet Glide has 92.6 Ft Lbs (well, if it was still the 96A motor), and my wife's 10 Fat Boy has 89 And my 08 Night Train had 87.9 and wife's now-deceased 09 Low Rider had 92 ft lbs even.
Comparing the numbers, that's roughly 9.5%.....so I guess that's close. Just doesn't seem "that much" until I did the math.
Ok, just pulled out the owner's manuals, and they do say my 10 Steet Glide has 92.6 Ft Lbs (well, if it was still the 96A motor), and my wife's 10 Fat Boy has 89 And my 08 Night Train had 87.9 and wife's now-deceased 09 Low Rider had 92 ft lbs even.
Comparing the numbers, that's roughly 9.5%.....so I guess that's close. Just doesn't seem "that much" until I did the math.
#18
12-15-2010 | 11:18 PM
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 266
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
And I'm not a Rocket Scientist, but I believe those numbers were for Torque... not Horsepower.
#19
12-15-2010 | 11:54 PM
Found this to help U understand...
------------------------------------------------------
Harley-Davidson Twin Cam 96 vs. 96B
Bill Miko
07/23/2010
Click the images below for bigger versions:
Biker Hotline
Jerry from Denver asks... I'm getting ready to buy my first big twin Harley-Davidson motorcycle and don't understand the difference between the Twin Cam 96 and 96B (Balanced). Can you provide me with some insight?
Harley-Davidson motorcycles use a single-pin crankshaft and both connecting rods ride together (one inside the other) on that pin. Because of that, you have a very large amount of mass (two pistons, wrist pins, rings and connecting rods) changing direction twice (once at bottom, the other at top) each time the crankshaft makes a revolution. It is the direction change of the mass that causes the majority of the engine vibration we are going to talk about.
As you noted, Harley-Davidson makes two different versions of its Big Twin engine. The TC-96 (Twin Cam - 96 cubic inches) engine is used in all H-D Dyna and Touring models. It is mounted in the motorcycle chassis using an arrangement of carefully engineered rubber mounts and metal linkages.
The metal links allow the engine to rotate freely around the same center as the crankshaft, but prevent any additional movement in other directions. Because side-to-side movement is eliminated, the rubber mounts are installed in the area where the engine will vibrate to dampen the rotational shaking effect. Many Harley riders refer to the motorcycles using this system as "rubber-mounted".
Touring and Dyna model motorcycles tend to shake quite a bit at idle-not as much as the engine does, but the vibration is still noticeable at the seat, floorboards/foot pegs and handlebars. As the engine rpm rises, the vibration becomes far less intrusive and the genius of Harley's mounting system comes into play, as the motorcycles are very smooth and comfortable at highway speeds.
Harley-Davidson's Softail models are an entirely different animal. The engine in this chassis is the TC-96B (Twin Cam - 96 cubic inches, Balanced). Although this engine shares pistons, cylinders, heads and connecting rods with other TC-96 mill, the feel of the powertrain is significantly different when compared to other Harley-Davidson models. The difference is evident right at idle because even though the engine is bolted directly to the frame (no rubber mounts or linkages), there is minimal vibration.
In comparison, the TC-96 shakes back and forth when idling, reminiscent of a paint mixer at your local home improvement store. The "B" engine appears instead to be sitting calmly in the Softail chassis. A quick touch of the rider controls will confirm this, yielding almost no significant feeling of vibration.
So where is all the shaking going? Well, it isn't as difficult to explain as you would think. Consider the photograph of the counterbalancer mechanism from a TC-96B. We are looking at the right side of the engine, so the crankshaft it will be rotating clockwise when the engine is running.
As you can see, the counterbalancer drive chain passes under the crankshaft gear then continues rearward to the rear counterbalance weight and continues around to the front counterbalance weight before returning to the crankshaft.
Because of this arrangement, the counterbalancer weights rotate in their bearings in the opposite direction of the crankshaft's rotation, and at the same speed as the crankshaft (all three sprockets are the same size). The Motor Company engineers use two smaller weights equidistant from the crankshaft to eliminate any secondary vibration that might come from a singular weight that was mounted farther away from the crankshaft.
If you have any doubt about how effective the Softail's counterbalancer system is on the Twin Cam engines, a quick ride on a pre-2000 Evo-powered Softail, with its solidly mounted non-counterbalanced engine, will illustrate the difference far better than anything we can write on this page.
In the end, Harley's counterbalancer system used on the "B" engines has been virtually trouble-free, so this should take that aspect out of your consideration. Instead you should focus on the way the engine feels in the motorcycle.
If you commute or ride predominately in urban or suburban areas, you may find that the smoothness of the Softail suits you because of the regular starting, stopping and idling you will encounter. On the other hand, if you regularly get out on the highway or on rural roads where you can stretch your legs a bit, you may find a Dyna or Touring model more enjoyable.
------------------------------------------------------
Harley-Davidson Twin Cam 96 vs. 96B
Bill Miko
07/23/2010
Click the images below for bigger versions:
Biker Hotline
Jerry from Denver asks... I'm getting ready to buy my first big twin Harley-Davidson motorcycle and don't understand the difference between the Twin Cam 96 and 96B (Balanced). Can you provide me with some insight?
Harley-Davidson motorcycles use a single-pin crankshaft and both connecting rods ride together (one inside the other) on that pin. Because of that, you have a very large amount of mass (two pistons, wrist pins, rings and connecting rods) changing direction twice (once at bottom, the other at top) each time the crankshaft makes a revolution. It is the direction change of the mass that causes the majority of the engine vibration we are going to talk about.
As you noted, Harley-Davidson makes two different versions of its Big Twin engine. The TC-96 (Twin Cam - 96 cubic inches) engine is used in all H-D Dyna and Touring models. It is mounted in the motorcycle chassis using an arrangement of carefully engineered rubber mounts and metal linkages.
The metal links allow the engine to rotate freely around the same center as the crankshaft, but prevent any additional movement in other directions. Because side-to-side movement is eliminated, the rubber mounts are installed in the area where the engine will vibrate to dampen the rotational shaking effect. Many Harley riders refer to the motorcycles using this system as "rubber-mounted".
Touring and Dyna model motorcycles tend to shake quite a bit at idle-not as much as the engine does, but the vibration is still noticeable at the seat, floorboards/foot pegs and handlebars. As the engine rpm rises, the vibration becomes far less intrusive and the genius of Harley's mounting system comes into play, as the motorcycles are very smooth and comfortable at highway speeds.
Harley-Davidson's Softail models are an entirely different animal. The engine in this chassis is the TC-96B (Twin Cam - 96 cubic inches, Balanced). Although this engine shares pistons, cylinders, heads and connecting rods with other TC-96 mill, the feel of the powertrain is significantly different when compared to other Harley-Davidson models. The difference is evident right at idle because even though the engine is bolted directly to the frame (no rubber mounts or linkages), there is minimal vibration.
In comparison, the TC-96 shakes back and forth when idling, reminiscent of a paint mixer at your local home improvement store. The "B" engine appears instead to be sitting calmly in the Softail chassis. A quick touch of the rider controls will confirm this, yielding almost no significant feeling of vibration.
So where is all the shaking going? Well, it isn't as difficult to explain as you would think. Consider the photograph of the counterbalancer mechanism from a TC-96B. We are looking at the right side of the engine, so the crankshaft it will be rotating clockwise when the engine is running.
As you can see, the counterbalancer drive chain passes under the crankshaft gear then continues rearward to the rear counterbalance weight and continues around to the front counterbalance weight before returning to the crankshaft.
Because of this arrangement, the counterbalancer weights rotate in their bearings in the opposite direction of the crankshaft's rotation, and at the same speed as the crankshaft (all three sprockets are the same size). The Motor Company engineers use two smaller weights equidistant from the crankshaft to eliminate any secondary vibration that might come from a singular weight that was mounted farther away from the crankshaft.
If you have any doubt about how effective the Softail's counterbalancer system is on the Twin Cam engines, a quick ride on a pre-2000 Evo-powered Softail, with its solidly mounted non-counterbalanced engine, will illustrate the difference far better than anything we can write on this page.
In the end, Harley's counterbalancer system used on the "B" engines has been virtually trouble-free, so this should take that aspect out of your consideration. Instead you should focus on the way the engine feels in the motorcycle.
If you commute or ride predominately in urban or suburban areas, you may find that the smoothness of the Softail suits you because of the regular starting, stopping and idling you will encounter. On the other hand, if you regularly get out on the highway or on rural roads where you can stretch your legs a bit, you may find a Dyna or Touring model more enjoyable.
The 96B motor with the counter balancers is made for women and metrosexuals whose fingers get all "tingly" from vibration and installed into a motorcycle frame that is designated "soft" while the 96A is a real Harley Davidson Vtwin engine and made for male bikers who generally have a higher level of libido.
Pretty simple explanation really......
Pretty simple explanation really......
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