California Riders - Ever Get Ticketed for Side Mount License Plate?
#11
05-04-2010, 05:27 AM
I hate to burst your bubble, but you are going to loose this one. " it shall be attached to the rear thereof " and yours is mounted on the side, not the rear.
No idea why they would be picky about it, maybe a slow day?
No idea why they would be picky about it, maybe a slow day?
#12
05-04-2010, 05:42 AM
Just a stupid example here. What's to stop anyone from mounting their plate above their clutch lever?
That's between 12" & 60".......
They just may get you on the "rear thereof" thing.......good luck man, ticky tack crap you have to deal with here.
#13
05-04-2010, 06:28 AM
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Sooooo, would you say your "rear" blinker is not on the rear?
#14
05-04-2010, 06:48 AM
I have to agree with Road Toad here. The tag is mounted on the side of the bike, forward of the rear axle, that doesn't meet "it shall be attached to the rear thereof", IMO.
#15
05-04-2010, 07:27 AM
Several things when in court:
1. You were cited for a specific infraction - height of the plate is irrelevant, don't even bring it up (unless the prosecution does).
2. You *could* argue that what the officer wrote ('offset to the left') has no bearing to the infraction cited as it doesn't mention offset. Note that you may win right here on this point.
3. If the officer (the prosecution) brings up the fact that it wasn't mounted on the rear of the vehicle, you can state that it *is* mounted to the rear of the vehicle, but not the *fender"; the swingarm (it's mounted to the swing arm, isn't it?) is the rearmost portion of the vehicle. Every vehicle does not necessarily have the plate mounted at the very rear most portion of the vehicle, including fender - the fender usually extends *beyond* the vehicle - thus demonstrating a precedent that the rearmost portion of the vehicle is not necessarily the rear most portion of the fender.
5. Photographs. Photograph your bike, with the location of the plate and fender. Photograph another bike with plate and fender, noting that the fender extends beyond the location of the plate. Photograph another vehicle - car, for example - showing the fender extend beyond the rear of the vehicle and the plate.
6. Ensure you have copies of the law you were cited for.
7. If the prosecution tries to bring up *anything* not relating to the cited law, bring it back to the exact specific law (it doesn't matter if you were drunk, speeding, driving recklessly - as long as you didn't get tickets for any of those things...)
8. Be calm and cool. Your objective is to get the judge to see it your way (this means that you also want to look presentable in decent clothes, clean shaven, etc. Eliminate as many negative projections as possible in the eyes of the judge).
9. Don't argue that the law is stupid, or worded incorrectly, or doesn't mean what it says, etc. You won't win that way. The law is the law, you are only arguing if you actually broke that *very specific* law.
10. It's natural to be nervous. Make notes of what you are going to say. The judge will understand. If you need a couple of moments to gather your thoughts, say so to the judge.
Edit:
11. Don't belabor any point if the judge deems it irrelevant, states he's going to ignore it, or tells you to move on to your next point. The court room is owned by the judge. You don't need to convince the prosecution, the security guards, your buddies: only the judge.
Edit2:
Also note that the law does state 'rear' and not 'rearmost'. If you are asked to cross-examine the witness (cop/prosecution) don't get fancy or try to entrap them - it'll almost always back fire. I'd probably say something like 'can you see the plate from the rear of the vehicle?'. Have a photograph of the bike showing that you can, indeed, see the plate from the rear of the vehicle. This puts, one would hope, you in favorable light in that you are demonstrating that the intent to follow the law exists.
As an aside to this, I'd also measure the angle at which you cannot see the plate, since it'd be hidden by the wheel at some point observing from the right. *do not bring this up* unless the prosecution does. Essentially, you need to demonstrate that the plate can be seen from any *reasonable* angle when viewed from the rear of the vehicle - again, demonstrating an intent to be compliant.
Also, manufacturers are not bound by the same laws as the users of the vehicle. Stating how the manufacturers make and mount plates may not help your cause (it might, but is not something to rely on - Harley Davidson didn't receive the ticket, you did).
Hope some of that helps.
1. You were cited for a specific infraction - height of the plate is irrelevant, don't even bring it up (unless the prosecution does).
2. You *could* argue that what the officer wrote ('offset to the left') has no bearing to the infraction cited as it doesn't mention offset. Note that you may win right here on this point.
3. If the officer (the prosecution) brings up the fact that it wasn't mounted on the rear of the vehicle, you can state that it *is* mounted to the rear of the vehicle, but not the *fender"; the swingarm (it's mounted to the swing arm, isn't it?) is the rearmost portion of the vehicle. Every vehicle does not necessarily have the plate mounted at the very rear most portion of the vehicle, including fender - the fender usually extends *beyond* the vehicle - thus demonstrating a precedent that the rearmost portion of the vehicle is not necessarily the rear most portion of the fender.
5. Photographs. Photograph your bike, with the location of the plate and fender. Photograph another bike with plate and fender, noting that the fender extends beyond the location of the plate. Photograph another vehicle - car, for example - showing the fender extend beyond the rear of the vehicle and the plate.
6. Ensure you have copies of the law you were cited for.
7. If the prosecution tries to bring up *anything* not relating to the cited law, bring it back to the exact specific law (it doesn't matter if you were drunk, speeding, driving recklessly - as long as you didn't get tickets for any of those things...)
8. Be calm and cool. Your objective is to get the judge to see it your way (this means that you also want to look presentable in decent clothes, clean shaven, etc. Eliminate as many negative projections as possible in the eyes of the judge).
9. Don't argue that the law is stupid, or worded incorrectly, or doesn't mean what it says, etc. You won't win that way. The law is the law, you are only arguing if you actually broke that *very specific* law.
10. It's natural to be nervous. Make notes of what you are going to say. The judge will understand. If you need a couple of moments to gather your thoughts, say so to the judge.
Edit:
11. Don't belabor any point if the judge deems it irrelevant, states he's going to ignore it, or tells you to move on to your next point. The court room is owned by the judge. You don't need to convince the prosecution, the security guards, your buddies: only the judge.
Edit2:
Also note that the law does state 'rear' and not 'rearmost'. If you are asked to cross-examine the witness (cop/prosecution) don't get fancy or try to entrap them - it'll almost always back fire. I'd probably say something like 'can you see the plate from the rear of the vehicle?'. Have a photograph of the bike showing that you can, indeed, see the plate from the rear of the vehicle. This puts, one would hope, you in favorable light in that you are demonstrating that the intent to follow the law exists.
As an aside to this, I'd also measure the angle at which you cannot see the plate, since it'd be hidden by the wheel at some point observing from the right. *do not bring this up* unless the prosecution does. Essentially, you need to demonstrate that the plate can be seen from any *reasonable* angle when viewed from the rear of the vehicle - again, demonstrating an intent to be compliant.
Also, manufacturers are not bound by the same laws as the users of the vehicle. Stating how the manufacturers make and mount plates may not help your cause (it might, but is not something to rely on - Harley Davidson didn't receive the ticket, you did).
Hope some of that helps.
Last edited by OceanTwo; 05-04-2010 at 07:46 AM.
#16
05-04-2010, 08:12 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
I got one in Fremont about 8 years ago , I asked him why is it Illegal
he said because the Plate is not visable from all angels
I just went a head and got a new rear license plate . and had it signed it off.
It seems like its one of those things they can Hassel you about..
Good - Luck
he said because the Plate is not visable from all angels
I just went a head and got a new rear license plate . and had it signed it off.
It seems like its one of those things they can Hassel you about..
Good - Luck
#17
05-04-2010, 11:20 AM
Thanks for the help, everyone. It sounds like things could go either way...
OceanTwo, thanks for your detailed in-court guidelines. You have much experience standing in front of a judge?
Hopefully, I won't have to take it that far. But if CHP does not sign off on the citation, I may have to re-evaluate my course of action.
OceanTwo, thanks for your detailed in-court guidelines. You have much experience standing in front of a judge?
Hopefully, I won't have to take it that far. But if CHP does not sign off on the citation, I may have to re-evaluate my course of action.
#18
05-04-2010, 12:45 PM
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The rear tag on my Ultra is NOT visible from side angles very well, it is NOT at the furthermost rear" section of the bike and is covered by a factory tour PacK!
Keep us posted on this. Interesting!
Keep us posted on this. Interesting!
#20
05-04-2010, 02:45 PM
even though OceanTwo brings up some very valid points, one thing is flawed. Your license plate is not located on the rear of your bike nor is it even located on the rear of your swing arm. Your plate is located on the lowest, furthermost front portion of your swing arm, quite a ways forward from the rear of the bike. It is almost so far forward that it is completely forward of the rear tire; more located in the middle of the bike. Also, due to its placement, the plate is most likely not viewable if the driver behind you is driving slightly to the right side of the lane and not looking straight on at your bike. If it was one of the plate holders that mounts to the axle nut, I would say you would be alright, but due to how far forward on your swing arm the plate is actually mounted, it's a far cry from meeting the guidelines as to being placed on the rear of the bike. In comparison, that would be like mounting your truck license plate forward of the rear tire of the vehicle; it just doesn't work. Sorry to burst your bubble.